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JGRAFF

New to me forge W/ issues......HELP!!!!

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Hey IFI, I know it's been awhile since I've made a post here but I was hoping someone with more knowledge than me could help. I bought this forge last September. I ran it a little when I first got it but it ran poorly. So, I decided to take it apart and clean it. I got tons of shavings and dirt out of the lines. So tonight i finally finished puting it back together. So, I hooked up a tank and fired it up. But, now it runs even worse than it ever had. Its poping, cracking, buffering noises. It sounds like a double bass on a drum set. Haha Hopefully you guys have some suggestions. Help!!!!! Thanks, Jgraff

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"My car won't start. Please tell me why." More info required :) What kind of burners? Home made? Blown or naturally aspirated? Dirt and shaving in gas lines? Are you sure there's plenty of gas in the tank? Got pics?

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Ok OK, I get it, you need more from me.

 

Yes, it is homemade and the burners are from some sort of furnace (i was told). It is naturally aspirated, and i know the tank is low but not empty. I was running it around 3 psi only because somthing was obviously wrong and i didnt feel like blowing the house up. And Yes, when i took all the lines apart there was rust particals and dirt and metal shavings in the tubing (i assume from the black iron fittings).

 

I loaded a few pics of the forge durring operation. You can see in the second and third picture the flame not traveling down but staying in the burner about 2 inches from the nozzle.  Hopefully they can better clerify the set-up.

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" I was running it around 3 psi only because somthing was obviously wrong and i didnt feel like blowing the house up."

We do not want you to either,,or for you to get burned.

You need to find someone to help you with this. Can you contact the person you got it from or perhaps the maker? I am also concered about each of the connections I hope they have  been properly leak tested after you had them apart. Farrier supply houses are usually familiar with gassers and yoiu may also see if the local LPG supplier will check it out for you.

It just not seem that responses from this forum are proper to give you advice on this issue based on limited text and pictures.

Needed pressure is directly related to the size of opening in the nozzle.

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When you say "nozzle" do you mean the pinhole? It is .045 diameter. I tried choking the air intake and got no better results. I also checked all connections for leaks and all is good. Is there anything else I'm missing? From the pictures can anyone identify what the burners are off of?

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If I had to take a wild stab, I'd suggest that your orifice (where the gas comes out) is partially obstructed.  The burner looks like a Reil style burner, I suggest you ask Jerry Frost (Frosty the Lucky) if he has any insight.  I know next to nothing about the Reil, as I've only played with the side-arm burners.

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Usually the flame front will move up into the tube due to low gas velocity that is not pulling enough air for combustion to keep the flame at the nozzle. Either too low pressure in relation to the nozzle tip size or as jcornell suggested a clogged tip? Try isolating each burner to see how they operate at different pressures. With them plumbed together a blockage in one will effect the other. I cant tell from the pictures, is the 90' turn in the burner welded on or does it look like the burner was made that way? Since the air is just drawn in any restrictions or sharp bends could cause backpressure issues.

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As Rich said- if you are concerned for your safety and don't have experience with such things, seek pro advice. That being said, I'll give you my 2 cents. Consider it worth what you paid for it-

It looks like the orifice might be to big. 0.45 is good for tubing 1" inside diameter... You also need to be sure the fuel stream is traveling down the center of the burner tube. The bends at the end of the tube may be causing to much back pressure with such a low fuel inlet pressure.

If you are determined to work this out yourself, I suggest getting Michael Porter's book "Gas Burners for forges, furnaces & kilns" I have built several burners based on his methods. It should help with sorting out your burners by giving you a good understanding of how burners function.

Good Luck!

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Try isolating each burner to see how they operate at different pressures. I cant tell from the pictures, is the 90' turn in the burner welded on or does it look like the burner was made that way?

 

 

It looks like the orifice might be to big. 0.45 is good for tubing 1" inside diameter... You also need to be sure the fuel stream is traveling down the center of the burner tube. The bends at the end of the tube may be causing to much back pressure with such a low fuel inlet pressure.

 

 

I definitely need to isolate the burners. That will help trouble shoot. I attached a few more pictures to try to clarify the set-up. I was told the burner tubes are off of some kind of old furnace. But I am sure the orifice is blowing down the center of the burner.  What diameter orifice do you think I should have? 0.025", 0.035", maybe a few different ones and just see what works best?

 

My next few moves will be to get a new regulator gauge (because the one I have only goes up to 20 I think), a couple ball valves (to isolate the two burners), and make a few different diameter orifice tubes. I will definitely report back asap. In the meantime keep the suggestions coming.

 

Thanks,

JGRAFF

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So they came from an old furnace, was it a natural gas or propane furnace? What is the average inside diameter of the tubes as measure after the bell inlet? How long are they as measured from the orifice? Is there a flame holder on the ends inside the forge? How far into the insulation of the forge do the tubes protrude?

 

I wouldn't bother getting another regulator just yet. You should be able to run the forge on less than 20 PSI. 

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So they came from an old furnace, was it a natural gas or propane furnace? What is the average inside diameter of the tubes as measure after the bell inlet? How long are they as measured from the orifice? Is there a flame holder on the ends inside the forge? How far into the insulation of the forge do the tubes protrude?

 

I wouldn't bother getting another regulator just yet. You should be able to run the forge on less than 20 PSI. 

 

I would assume natural gas, but i don’t know. The seller just told me they were from an "old furnace".

 

The average ID of the burners is probably around 1 inch. After the bell portion the ID is about 3/4" and at the end it's about 1.25". The total overall measurement (from orifice to nozzle) is about 8 inches.

 

By "flame holder" do you mean some sort of stainless steel flared tubing? If so, no.

 

Also, your next question was something else i was worried about. First of all, the burner in cast iron, and as i said in the previous sentence, there is no flame holder at the end. The end of the burner is about 0.25" up inside the wool and refractory. Bad?

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I would suggest you go to Ron Reils website and thoroughly read it. I think you will find it would be easier and more informative to build a couple of burners based on his design for a 3/4 inch burner than trying to get what you have now working. With the knowledge you gain you can then decide if you want to try and make the original burners work.

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If you can make a flame holder, I would suggest doing so. I would also make an orifice that is a bit smaller, say 0.035" to 0.38". The reduced size will give more volocity to the fuel. You will need some sort of flame holder to keep the flame from climbing back up the tube. I run my forge with the flame holder just slightly back of the forge liner. The liner also maintanes the flare of the flame holder as the burn enters the chamber.

Ron Teils website is another great resource...

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My thoughts would be to put a needle valves on each burner, if you want to separate them....And up the supply pressure some.... With separate valves you could run it as a one or two burner forge....

Dale

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Well, I’ve made a decision........ I’m tearing the forge burner assembly apart and starting over. I want to go with a more "tried and true" burner design. I am gathering parts as we speak to put together two Zoeller Forge Z-burners. Hopefully I can get all the parts together soon, so that I can start swinging a hammer again. I also like the idea of bench tuning the individual burners. I will report back as soon as I start reassembling. Thanks to all that provided guidance.

 

Thanks again,

JGRAFF

 

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Update...... I am almost ready to fire it up!!!!!. I just got the SS flairs made late night but I still have to find some SS set screws to attach them to the burner tubes. So these pictures are prior to the flairs being installed but it sure does looks good!!! Plus putting it together allowed me to check for leaks up to the second ball valves. And go figure... I had a leak. So I pulled out the JB weld and laid it on thick around the joint. You can see it in the last picture right after the T-fitting. Once it all dried, it works great, at least up to around 20 psi (the highest my gauge will go). I decided to go with barbed fittings and propane rubber gas lines to feed the burners because that was available to me. At my 9-5 I work closely with the maintenance dept. and there are around 15 forklifts in operation and propane parts are readily available. Well, I still have my fingers crossed that this works. Hopefully I will fire this bad boy up tonight and give another good update soon. Thanks for
all the help thus far.

 

JGRAFF



 

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JGRAFF,

 

The burners look pretty good but I think you ought to change some of the plumbing.  I would consider changing that rubber hosing to copper.  It's flexable enough that you can still adjust the burner tubes.  I would not trust those barbed  fittings and clamps.  The air space above the forge gets really hot and I would expect the rubber hoses to soften.

 

It maybe good for a test run but not for prolonged use.

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JGRAFF,

 

The burners look pretty good but I think you ought to change some of the plumbing.  I would consider changing that rubber hosing to copper.  It's flexable enough that you can still adjust the burner tubes.  I would not trust those barbed  fittings and clamps.  The air space above the forge gets really hot and I would expect the rubber hoses to soften.

 

It maybe good for a test run but not for prolonged use.

 

A soft hose is never a good thing..... ;- )

 

Good point. Thanks for the advice.

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Here are a few pictures of the SS burner flairs / flame holders i made. I bought a few SS pipe nipples (316/316L 1" Pipe Size X 6" Length) cut them down to 3 inches. Then i flaired the end by hammering it down over the ball of a ball-pein hammer until the opening was 1.25". :rolleyes: Hopefully this will work.

 

Does anyone know how far i should slip the flair onto the burner tube? Is there a scienctific method or guess and check?

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It's probably a case of guess and check. I've built a few burners using Amal brand Gas Injectors and they recommend a flame retention cup length of twice the ID of the burner throat. For a plain 3/4" bore pipe into a 1" retention cup, the 1" cup would add 1 1/2" to the length.

 

The Amal Gas Injector leaflet is downloadable at http://www.amalcarb.co.uk/downloads.aspx

 

In my experience, things are pretty forgiving at the hot end as far as tolerances go. It's more the gas:air mixer end of a Naturally Aspirated burner that is worth getting a bit obsessive about, since it makes such a big difference to how well the burner works.

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I was just informed that the zburners made by Larry Z use 3/4" tube with a 1" wye fitting. Is this true? Can anyone confirm or deny? CRAP!!!!! I got 3/4" wyes!!! Hopefully this will still aspirate correctly.

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Here's a picture of a stock z-burner - I've used it for a couple of years (which is why the end of the flare is bugled out.)

 

Second picture is of the burner tube unscrewed from the Wye fitting - notice the bushing that mates the 3/4" pipe nipple to the 1 1/4" Wye fitting.

 

Third picture shows a ruler against the opening of the Wye fitting where the burner tube screws in - yup, it's 1 1/4"

 

Now, I don't know if your home-brewed z-burner will work with the smaller Wye fitting, but the only way to find out is to connect it to the forge and the propane tank and give it a try.

 

What I'm now intrigued to try is to take a 1" wye fitting and make a 1/2" mini-z-burner.

 

The only drawback I've found to the standard z-burner is that it's quite loud.  I'm tinkering with a smaller forge (experimental forge #2) and I've made a 1/2" mini-sidearm burner - it's much quieter.

 

 

 

 

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I think im going to be fine. I fired it up and it ran pretty good! I might grind out the id of the open end of the of the wye. Also i can't imagine the mig tip being tapered having any affect. Mine is still .035".

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