trade secrets

[Ten Hammers]

Bites his lip on the hijack of the thread.  Suffice to say that we don't need any more of this here. 

[yesteryearforge]

The Secret of Blacksmithing is theres NO secret to Blacksmithing.

[Bob S]

The Secret of Blacksmithing is theres NO secret to Blacksmithing.

 

I guess that depends on what you think a 'secret' is. A secret could be anything you don't know. It doesn't mean that someone else is keeping it from you. It just means that it's something you have yet to have revealed to you. Secrets can be revealed in many ways. By a 'master' smith.  By a book. By sweat and hard work (the best way but not the easiest). And sometimes by an internet forum like this.

 

Here is a thread from today that has a few excellent 'secrets'.....

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/31028-drawing-out-math/

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

Something that was overlooked to a great measure at the beginning of this thread, before we got into all the philosopy, is that prior to the last century or so, pretty much all blacksmithing information could have also fallen under the category of military secrets... prior to us building everything with machines, everything was made by smiths, and they would likely have been very tightlipped with anyone not from their town, company, shop, what have you...

I tend to feel however in modern times that trade secrets are the last refuge of the unskilled or insecure. The fact is most of us who have spent a significant amount of time at the anvil can figure out how to do just about anything we see, although we may arrive at the same ends by a different path. Keeping secrets in this day and age is just silly. If anyone asks me to show or explain to them how I do something, I am happy to oblige, provided that they are respectful, etc. I won't teach a fool to do what I do, but anyone with a genuine interest in our craft, I will take time with, even when it does result in me being annoyed by endless questions. 

[Ted T]

Trade Secrets

This is long! I respond because you all are valuable to me. 

Short version:  Happy New Year!

Long version: read only if you need something to do!

 

Trade Secrets? Or, is it “Basic Skills Reconfigured” to meet the need of the project?

I believe that I have never figured out anything that someone else has not done first.

All I have ever done is so ordered the basics in such a way to get the result that I needed.

That is not a trade secret; I consider it to be the challenge and the enjoyment of forging to have

an opportunity to figure out the order of operations as to obtain the results I needed.

 

I have done some things that I have never seen anyone else do in the way I do it.  But that is not a trade secret because when a person who has become proficient with the basics and has the same need arise, he may do the same thing I have done and even better!  No surprise!

 

The basics of forging are a secret to people who do not possess the skills. That is because they have not yet paid the price to unlock the knowledge to learn the basics yet.  But that is true with any trade!

 

People, Skills, Desire, Attitudes’, Time, Our Time’s, Locations, Financial, Interests, Sacrifice, Patience, Understanding, and Life Situations! I figure all of this has something that goes back to someone asking about trade secrets.

There are BLACKSMITH’S who have paid the high price to obtain their skill level of excellence in the craft of forging (blacksmithing), and then there are people who are at  a zero point (just starting) and anywhere in-between who are trying to aim their compass correctly at becoming proficient in the craft of Blacksmithing.

 

I have read through this thread realizing that “Honest Perspective Based Experience” is being expressed by each contributor.  I could not argue against any one of them.

If everyone’s view was exactly the same, I would have to deeply question any accuracy of my lifetime of observing people and life situations and how they seem to unfold.

Over the past 60 years of being in the craft I have met or observed many blacksmiths. 

Their backgrounds are as varied and different as there are fingerprints.

We are all different, but have a common bond of interest!

 

Just the factor of the person’s age of when they entered the craft, and then the time period in history that they entered the craft plays a great significance of their perspective about the craft and life in general

How, and who, was a mentor to that person when they first got started in the craft plays a large role in a person’s perception and prospective of how the person values the price paid for the knowledge of the craft.

 

I don’t have trade secrets, although I have had 60 wonderful years exposure to the craft of blacksmithing.  There were tons of sweaty long hour days, the sacrifice of no insurance for my family, a few burns, and I have met many wonderful and some not so wonderful people. 

 

Nothing that I have ever experienced in life could fill that need to have the continuous tranquility and fulfillment of creating something from a blob of steel into something that was useful or beautiful for the interested eye to view!

 

My time at the forge was always spent focused on the work I was doing. I learned early that if my mind was somewhere else, that I would get burned or mess something up.  It is the greatest mental therapy I could have subjected myself to.   

 

60 years of exposure to the craft does not qualify me to be a highly skilled blacksmith. It only means that I have made observations (correctly and incorrectly) over the years.

 

I have made a living at the trade of blacksmithing / welding that supported my family in the early days.  I have been employed by a government agency as a blacksmith and also opened three different shops over the years.  It took me three times to get it right! I was no business man.

 

I say all of that to say this:  I have seen in person and over the internet (I Forge Iron) many,

blacksmiths and blade smiths that in a relatively short time grew past my skill level very quickly.  And that was because (everything being equal such as desire and potential ability) the information is now made available in abundance and they took advantage if it! 

I say good for them!

 

I have picked up on the idea that many times people who are asking questions here at I Forge Iron have never been mentored in any positive fashion and do not understand the values involved.

That does not make them bad people, but people that need to be informed.

Many times the ONLY MENTOR they have found to start with to become a blacksmith, bladesmith, or a sword smith, is right here at “I Forge Iron”.

Their personal life situations are reflected back through the nature of questions and attitudes of how and what they ask.

 

I suggest that they have no idea of the actual cost in time, money sweat, burns, time away from family they missed, vacations that could never be taken, and sweating out the lean times of the business that is involved, and many more costs of learning the craft.

And then when they (new people/blacksmiths) ask questions that could rightfully up-set people who have paid the due’s to learn the trade, it could easily up set most of us unless we consider Who, What , Why, and also that this is the internet.

 

I believe I Forge Iron was established with the spirit of teaching, learning, and relationships.

And I agree that sometime it is easy to forget the above foundational principal due to the repetition of the disproportional information exchange between the volume of beginners and proven craftsman.   

 

Here for an example of a “drop in the bucket” expense to learn how to do a process differently than I was originally taught.

Example; of my cost to go to just one mid-winter three day Hammer-in (Sub zero temps). 

The main attraction was a paid instructor.   

Here is a quick summary of my base costs not counting Dues and Iron in the Hat.

Gas: $88.00 dollars.  Motel: $270.00.   Admission: $300.00.  Total = $658.00 dollars.

I counted the costs as a bargain because I learned one new way to combine the basic foundational skills of forging.  

 

I know of well groomed blacksmiths found here at I Forge Iron who trained themselves and are successful.

I consider that to be awesome, but not all people are capable of doing that.

 

There was nothing like blacksmith groups, written material, video’s to learn from, or what we have here at I Forge Iron that was affordable or available when I started, except blacksmiths that were short on temper and believed that a boy should be seen and not heard.  

I paid a price!

I have been a cop, a prison guard, bounty hunter, and an investigator.  I have seen many young people thrown away by our society. Young people who brought tears to my eyes at the time, and even now when I think of them.  Young people who had no one to ask questions too.  Young people who have never had a kind word said to them much less a mentor in their life, who are now serving life sentences in prison. 

 

I truly believe that young people are in a different boat than what I ever knew off.

They have a demand put on them to learn a large amount of information in a very short time.

And that is the new name of life’s game.   Yes we had pressure when I was young.  They do also, but it is different.  Everything they do now has to be learned quickly, or go to the back of the line.

It seems only natural that they want to speed learn something that takes whatever time it takes depending on their ability and ability to make training available to them.  But they just don’t all seem to pick up on that right away!

 

And for some people: Only the members found here at I Forge Iron can assist to help fill that “knowledge of blacksmithing” gap with the milk of human kindness and patents.

 

We now enjoy the opportunity to have full access and availability to an enormity of information that is easily obtainable. It is amazing to me.

Just look at our “YOUNG SMITH’S”.  They all got off of the couch and got busy.

Many people do not have a couch to get off of much less someone to encourage them.

I suggest that we consider being as patent as possible and be blacksmith mentors.

We may be just typing to a New YOUNG BLACKSMITH that needs a friendly boost and understanding.  

[yesteryearforge]

As USUAL Ted

Well thought out and well said

[Sweany]

That my Friends is the Trade secret.

 

Y'all have said it right out here in the open.  Listen!

 

By the way Sparky is that the right of left glove? Ahh never mind I'll figure it out. :)

 

Ted, let's get a cup of coffee some time. WE could swap old weldor stories. 

[ianinsa]

T

 WE could swap old weldor stories. 

Is that weld or rivet? :D

My goodness Ted how long did it take to type that lot out? well put though!

All the best for the new year, Ian

[Sweany]

Ian, I never bucked rivets but I worked with guys that did.

When I was a younger I started work in a weld shop, out of high school in 1974. 

 

 

I worked with a man who started bucking rivets in tanks when he was 16. No ear plugs in those days, he said you chewed a good wad of newspaper before you went into the tank and plugged your ears with that.

 

His first welding job was forge welding tanks. They put old RR rails under the seams. The weldor ran the rosebud and told them when to put on sand and when to start swinging the sledge hammer. One weldor would keep two boys hammering all day.

 

Later on he said he ran some of the first Lincoln electric welding rod. He said the stuff looked like it was wrapped in cloth,but hardened.

He said when you lit one of those off, you couldn't see the weldor for the smoke......

 

The old guy retired at 65 that year. He spent a life time working like that.  It was a pretty good job of wok for me to keep up with him. Course he knew all the "trade secrets". (BOG)

[LarryM]

I share my wisdom everyday with the young guys at work.  I look at it this way when I'm gone they'll be share the same wisdom with others.

 

 

Larry

 

P.S.  If you give a man a fish he will eat for a day.  Teach that same man how to fish he will eat for a lifetime.  Teach a child to fish, and he will feed a world.

[FredW]

Great thread, still trying to figure out the secrets. When i was young i got a job with the local sheet metal union. After the summer was over I decided to go ahead and apply for the apprentice program. I spent most of my apprenticeship in the shop and at that time, I suppose I thought I was learning all the secrets of the trade. Now that I look back I realize there were no secrets to be learned really. The journeymen in the shop showed me tricks, shortcuts, and ways to make my job easier but no secrets. Some of those shortcuts were also more related to how i pushed the broom or used the shovel. Of course one of my jobs were to also make the lunch run or end of week beer run (safety meeting). Point is I spent a lot of time doing a lot of different things that were common to most jobs, or not, and my job as an apprentice was to basically work my way up. Everyone was very willing to show me how to properly cut a piece of sheet metal with hand shears or even to lay out a specific fitting for ducts. None of it was a secret.

 

One thing that stuck in my head from my days as a union apprentice was not the tricks of the trade but the advantage i had being an apprentice over someone who worked his way up through a non union shop. They did not have the advantage of the 4 nights a week of school and then having that same information then showed me in a shop setting. My foreman would tell me, over and over, for 4 years, and a lot of those times i was rolling my eyes, there were a lot of people out there that can do my job and it was his job not to only teach me how to work with sheet metal but to show me how to be a craftsman. To take pride in my work and maybe one day it will be at a quality that it did not matter what my hourly rate was. People would seek me for the job. I was not very skilled at first but within 2 years i could do a lot of the layout work the journeymen were doing. I was not nearly as fast and mistake free but could do it. I was given the information and was doing something with it. I don't believe there are any real trade secrets as it is not necessary anymore. There may be proprietary knowledge of say alloys but if someone wanted that knowledge how difficult would it be to find out, really. I really don't think there are that many trade secrets but there are a lot of opportunities to learn here.

 

Sometimes there are those who ask questions and they expect the short version of how to get where they want to be. Sometimes and experienced craftsman gets annoyed with the question or the apparent lack of interest in doing the leg work and they get a bit of a lashing for it. Most of the time on this forum everyone is very helpful and will at least point them in the right direction. I also do understand the responses as well. I will never be an expert blacksmith as I am in it for the hobby, but it is nice to have the help of those that are. I also spend most of my time reading here and books. I do suspect that a lot of the people asking the questions and expecting the short answer to all their problems will not end up being serious blacksmith. However, there may be one that would and attempting, at least to point them in the right direction is the thing to do and i will help if i can, though most often I can't. Treating them respectfully when replying is very important, no one here doesn't really need to be told that. No matter what though you are always going to have that person who wants the easy way out, more often than not it seems. No point in worrying as they will most likely do the minimal research and then eventually move on. A lot of them will be the younger generations as they are just now exploring what they may actually be interested in doing for the rest of their lives, as a career or hobby and most will not spend much more than asking a question on this forum then move on. We should also understand that as well.

 

Now I too have done a lot of different jobs in my life, sheet metal worker, truck driver, farm hand and my most recent career as a social worker in the child protective services. I will have to agree the kids today have to be more mature and have more responsibilities than when I was a kid in the 60' and 70's. I also see a lot of them fending completely for themselves, even taking care of their families as well. I don't blame these things of family or the kid. Sure the parents need to take responsibility and so do the kids. I could not imagine some of the situations these kids grow up in until I worked in child protective services. The one thing I learned from this job was to understand where they may have come from and not to judge them. They need someone to encourage them, to be positive, to show them not everyone blames them for everything. Most kids are not lazy, most do things differently than we, which is a good thing. I know a lot of kids that are very hard working and put a lot of effort into pleasing those older. The ones that we see as "No Good" are those that have tried for so long and gave up. They are not bad, just need a lot more help. I also don't believe they are that much different than when I was a kid or those generations ahead of me. Issues they have, abuse, neglect, have been going on since the beginning of man, just more of them and we hear about in more. Now i do not disagree with physical discipline but there are proven ways that work better. Positive discipline works very well. Tell the kid how good a job they are doing. Let them know how proud you are of them. you would be amazed how well that works. You can use physical discipline for the more immediate dangers in life, like running out into a busy street or playing with electrical outlets. All of this is also just one opinion and there are many proven methods of discipline. The problem we see in society today is people taking the easy way out, a lot may be due to parents issues. What happens is the kids learn from that and 9 times out of 10 they get worse. Eventually to the point the parent gives up.

 

Wow I seem to be a bit mouthy, geez. My point of all this ranting is kids aren't lazy, but some are a bit jaded. Most will work hard to please you or at least someone willing to give them the time. I found those I used to call lazy just have completely different interest than me. I had a nephew I thought was the laziest kid around, now he is a college graduate and manager of a sales network, making 3 times the money i am, and he's just starting. What a lazy kid.

 

Anyway I absolutely love this forum and have and will continue to learn a lot from it and the members. Thanks all for allowing me to rant.

 

Fred

[george m.]

Dear Larry,

 

I thought the 2d part of the fish quote was, "teach a man to fish and he will blow the kid's lunch money on carbon fiber rods and buzz baits." ;-)

 

Fishily,

George M.

[LarryM]

Dear Larry,

 

I thought the 2d part of the fish quote was, "teach a man to fish and he will blow the kid's lunch money on carbon fiber rods and buzz baits." ;-)

 

Fishily,

George M.

Let's just say there will be no shortage of beer and bait money from that day forward. :D

[metalmangeler]

I see 2 things that may be some what of a secret for some current smiths. One is special tooling. Timothy mentioned it, I have some things I don't bother to explain to people coming by the shop. The other possible secret is how long it takes to make some object, people don't mind paying you $5 per hour to work for them. If you find out how to do something so quickly they would never believe it then sometimes it is just as well if they don't know how long it took to make it. I do not lie I just don't say that it can be made in 2 minuets or whatever. You may remember that Grant commented on selling things based on percived value. He was telling his customers that he was selling tongs to them based on what they thought it would take them to make them themselves. He showed his methods toward the end of his life, but I still do not think that most really understood how effeicent he really was, they were still thinking I can pay Grant $30 bucks for a pair of tongs or I can spend an hour or 2 makeing them myself. They were not thinking Grant made these tongs in say 5 min.and I am paying $30 bucks for them. I do not know how quickly he made them, but I am sure it was much quicker than the average customer realized. I am not being critical of how he did this I think it was really the way it should have been handled. He was not cheating anyone,but if they saw him make say 50 pair of tongs in a day they may have felt that he was taking advantage of them. People forget the investment that is there and the years it took to get to that level and they only think ($ per hour) if they have that oppertunity rather than think ($ per product) I see things made on the other end of the spectrum as well, where someone says I took say 150 hours to make this therefore I need to get $$$$$ for it. Sometimes I am wondering how they could have been that slow. So the how long it took secret is usually a secret of the production smith.

[Frosty]

Good point Mark, you pay a craftsman for their knowledge more so than the materials and tooling. Sure materials and tooling are a factor but without the knowledge of a person directing them they're just highly refined dirt.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[sfgsdzas]

run into
I just wanna stay
so what?
Season's greetings and sincere wishes for a bright and happy New Year!
It was love at first sight.
The proof is in black and white and the murderer has no any excuses.
The most precious possession that ever comes to a man in this world is a woman's heart.
A little pot is soon hot.
Courtesy costs nothing.
green thumbs /fingers
children: you spend the first 2 years of their life teaching them to walk and talk. then you spend the next 16 years telling them to sit down and shut-up.
I wish i had all the time I'd ever wasted, so I could waste it all over again.
hollister outlet online
http://trm.ruweb.net/node/319247
http://www.streetunitforum.com/showthread.php?p=238048#post238048
http://www.cnsy.org.cn/html/xhxw/shanghuituce/2009/1209/951.html