Everything Mac Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I can't help but feel that having youngsters in the trade can only be a good thing. This was once a dying profession. And many would say it still is. But I can't help but notice a real increase in interest from people of all walks of life. Many of them in their late teens. This cannot surely be a bad thing which seems to be the general impression I get from reading a few replies here. Many years ago I read a quote "he who asks is a fool for five minutes, he who does not ask, remains a fool forever" I'll continue to ask questions for as long as I can. There will always be some one out there who's been at it longer than I have that will be able to pass on a comment or show me something that I may never have thought of which would change how I do things for the better. I fail to see why that is a bad thing? Sometimes you see something and you think "I like how he does that, I could use that technique to do xyz..." Or you wonder if you could make something similar for a particular task. "Adapt and overcome " is another saying I learnt in the military. It's all well and good blaming the generation of today for their failures. And it is easy to do. But it is the older generation who can have a say in how they do things and what they experience. If we let them play in the mud and build fires and burn stuff and do all the things we did as children then they'll be fine. I hope that's not too condescending coming from a childless 25 year old. Cheers Edit: I'd like to add, that trade secrets kept by smiths from their apprentices back in the day would likely have been to keep the aprentice from running off elsewhere and setting up a competing forge. Would that not bed a good thing these days? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I find the drift of this thread somewhat disturbing, I'm not a religious man, however I think teachings like "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" should be taken seriously. I believe I have vast knowledge on certain things, yet on others I have no /or rudimentary knowledge. I had no interest in making knives until I visited John E. and he got me hooked. (a blessing and a curse combined) I truly believe that I could show most smiths "something" new however small. Yet that said I truly believe that I have learnt something from every smith that I have visited. If you cast the seeds of knowledge far and wide, sure many(probably most) will land on the proverbial barren ground. However if just one takes root it will have been worth your while, so don't hesitate to spread the knowledge, the chances of it hurting you are minimal, yet the chances of you improving someones life/ helping them is vast. My heartfelt thanks to the inumerable smiths that have befriended, instructed, taught,entertained and hosted me on my travels. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 there are no tricks it is just others approach to the problem and a different outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 On a side note, relevant to some of the points about young people... As a 'youngster' I would like to chime in about these points... Young people are lazy, we try to work as little as possible. Just look at the amount of teenagers that spend their free time playing video games. That is the EASY way to pass time, so that is what they do. I very rarely come across other people my age who really have a 'drive' and are extremely motivated towards certain things. They do not have a passion, they simply have not had the exposure to the real world to appreciate something and be driven towards it. Again, this goes full circle to the point about young people being 'over-protected', 'sheltered' etc. I am extremely grateful to have the passion that I have. I do not mind the fact that it is not normal and my friends are doing other things (xbox) because I love this... Back to the main topic, I feel that keeping secrets is many generations outdated and is almost immature. Do we not all want to further the recognition of this craft and the people who are part of this craft? Shielding knowledge is the reason this craft is xxxx near extinct in France. The French smiths were extremely secretive, I know...I am half French, and my Great Grand father, his father, his father, his father etc on my mother's side were blacksmiths, my Great Grandfather had only women and so did not pass on his 'secrets' because 'they had to be passed down to a male heir' etc. So all was lost because the only person a blacksmith would tell his secrets to was his most worthy son. This is an extreme case, and obviously, it is not one that occurs today, but this is what can occur. Pardon my little rant! Happy new year... Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 There may be hope after all BRAVO Alec Its refreshing to get a glimpse of the way it used to be from a young person of today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 One point that was not really made I can tell you everything I know and show you as well but I can't make your hands do it. I have also tried to teach a few were"I said do this exactly as I showed you with these tools" and they took it as "Why are you micromanaging me". I was tiring to train them to achieve a very specific result. I have a milk crate of wonky scrolls because from a former apprentice who refused to do it the way they were shown. The episode lesson for me and made me more selective about whom I take on to help out in the shop. I remember a smith telling me that he showed one of his students how to light a fire the way he did and they wasted hours trying to get a fire lit because they did not want to do it his way. If you want the secrets you have to pay for them with your attention, respect, and humility iron is a stubborn master. Many of the "secrets" are there in plain sight you just have to be ready to see them. This craft is not for the willfully ignorant, lazy, easily distracted. The well of knowledge is very deep and I learn new things every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 You can't blame 'kid's these days' for wanting to have things handed to them. You blame society and their parents for raising them to expect that. I work in an industry in a very busy place where we have a hard time hiring and keeping good staff. Our local construction association held a seminar that explained a LOT to me when it focussed on generational differences. What we are having problems with (as are most of the people who are complaining about youth in this thread) seemed to be that they don't know how to relate to Generation Y. The presenter explained the general characteristics of each generation. When she got to Generation Y, she said that almost all the major events that had media coverage of their youth were tragedies (terrorist attacks, mass shootings etc.). Parents tend to try to protect their youth more and do more for them. They arrange the kid's entire schedule for them, they attend every event, and they provide constant feedback. Parents are now perpetually hovering over their kids. This is a generalization that does not hold true to all kids, but it can be applied to many. You are not going to change society. If you are having problems with the way some members are asking for information, you have some options. You can ignore it, get mad about it, or change the way YOU approach it. If you think it is bad now just wait until Generation Z starts to blacksmith. The negative attitudes of some members is the main reason why I don't come to IFI as much anymore. There is enough miserable stuff going on in the world, I don't need it in my hobbies too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
395743 Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 The Blacksmith that taught me only ever told me one "Secret" I am not going to say what it was, because he told me not to tell anyone... Just let it suffice to say that in reality it is not a "secret" and many many people know about it and it can be found on the web. No I don't really think there are many "secrets" anymore. Those which "back in the day" would have been considered "secrets" are now either forgotten or all over the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastRonin Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I thought this thread was supposed to be about whether anyone had trade secrets and were they willing to share them? Not a deliberation on the moral and ethical status of young people these days. P.S. Sorry if this newb's bluntness here irritates some of you more senior members, but it just appears to me that this thread's original point has been diverted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george m. Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Dear Last R., That is the basic nature and one of the values of these threads. They can start out at A and end up at Q or Z. Sometimes the Q or Z or the J and M which were passed on the way is more interesting and of more value to the participants than A ever was. I think that there has been a good discussion of "trade secrets" and how they are or should be used today with an interesting detour through strengths and failings of "the younger generation." Meanderingly, George M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 The real trade secrets are. 1. My client list. 2. My ledger. I will tell you the everything else I know. As to weather you can or will make use of it that is another matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I thought this thread was supposed to be about whether anyone had trade secrets and were they willing to share them? Not a deliberation on the moral and ethical status of young people these days. P.S. Sorry if this newb's bluntness here irritates some of you more senior members, but it just appears to me that this thread's original point has been diverted. We cant share anything if people wont listen to what we have to share. Many times I get complaints for sharing a link rather than taking the trouble to retype it all over again. Other times complaints about posts take too long to explain what they want, so then the person wont read it, not understanding there is not always a two sentace explination to every question asked. Some times it needs a long explaination, like the heat treating articles, there is no fast easy answer to learn to do it, I can tell you one thing, for one time, for one application, but that does not teach anything. On the one hand I am called grouchy and too lazy to answer them, but in fact I had already answered, but the person asking does not want to read and try to understand an answer in the first place. Much easier for them to complain. so while you see this thread going off track, it is connected to the problem. There are no more secrets, just too many dont take time to understand so they can get the knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweany Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Discussions are not Linear. One of my teachers told me. "I can explain it to you but I cain't understand it for you." Young people aren't much different than older people, some have the fire and passion to learn through attention and work, others want to have the same outcome without any effort. Life just don't work that way. Young or old same difference. I suppose now some "old guys" will attack my comments. (BOG) One of the best things my Father told me was to hang around the guys that are doing the job, they can can teach you something. I just learned my present day job from a man 16 years younger than I. He had the knowing of the job,all I had to do was pay attention. trade secrets,trade you secrets? As for the "failings of the younger generation", I once read an "EDITORIAL" on this same subject from Roman times, and subsequently through the ages, I've read similar. I don't post here often anymore but a recent mention of Practical Blacksmithing in another post encouraged me to get out my copy and have a look. Seems to me the "Blacksmith and Wheelwright" magazine from which the book was made, were the forums of its day. Discussions are like brainstorms please don't put limits on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Why would anyone argue with anything you said ?, you speak with wisdom. It may be hard to believe, but I also listen to every suggestion given, you can learn something from just about anyone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzer Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 The very first thing the man who taught me said was "I can't teach you anything, I can only show you the way." And that is what he did. He let me make mistakes, then guided me through figuring out what I did wrong (often with a chuckle and a smile) rather than just tell me how to fix it. He did the same for what I did right, so I'd know why it went right. He asked questions every step of the way, and had me explain to him what I was doing and why, to help guide my thought process in the right direction. He taught me how to think like a smith, not just techniques, so when I run into a problem, I can figure it out, or design my own process for the work I am doing. Sure there are "handy shop tricks" and I am always reading and watching how other smiths do things, as I obviously have an interest in the craft. But smithing, like some other things in life, is a process and knowing the process, having an intuitive grasp of how the metal behaves, is more valuable than a specific technique in many ways. Someone who understands the underlying process can figure out the steps required for a project, design tooling, or do the other sundry things that solve problems as they arise. Sometimes you will get stuck, and it's handy to have the ability to ask a question (and around here you will usually get a dozen different answers to pick the best solution for you from :D ) But in the overall scheme of things nothing beats heating some iron and working it into some sort of shape. You'll know you are getting there when the shape you end up with is closer to the shape you wanted when you started! Accurate or not, when questions come up like this, it gives the impression that someone is just wanting a step by step course in how to be a smith. I would hate to think how many volumes that would take up! If someone were to just memorize a list of procedures, then they will be at a loss when something new arises, or they have to make something that isn't on their "list". So the real "trade secret" IMHO is real experience working with the metal and getting a "feel" for it. There are plenty of good references for the basics to get started, but don't concentrate on the "what to do" as much as the "why it's done that way" and I think it will work out better in the long run. This forum is a great resource, and you will find the very basics to advanced metalurgy and everything in between if you just take the time to read up. I actually don't recommend using the search function unless you are trying to solve a specific problem. If you go to the start of a section and browse through, you will find a wealth of information, and likely find subjects you'd have never thought of, along with "trade secrets" and handy shop tricks. The problem with doing searches is you have to ask the right question, which is hard to do when first starting out. I'd recommend Shop Safety as the best place to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Pst! Use an old heat resistant kevlar glove for your oil application. It's heat resistant, and holds together GREAT as an oil applicator. Don't tell anyone! It's a secret! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
395743 Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Page 3 and Post #47 and I just now find a true trade secret.........thanks FF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Doggone it.....I think that someday I would have figured out on my own the glove trick,,and then could have kept it from everyone........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
395743 Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Haha! Good one Rich! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Beamish Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 When I served my apprenticeship a fair while ago I was lucky to be mentored by some good Blacksmiths. The leading hand issued the jobs and would give directions on what to do, he was highly skilled himself but not the best man manager. If you got stuck or had questions he could be a bit brusque to say the least, so you tended to ask one of the other tradesmen, they would rarely give you direct solution, they would ask questions to see what you had tried and make a few suggestions. The idea was that you would go away and try some of these suggestions and they'd keep a bit of an eye on you to see if you were having a genuine go. If you were they'd maybe give a few more hints if needed and let you know what they though of how you went. This was encouraging and you learnt as you went along. Once you were accepted as not being a ratbag (fool) they would help out quite willingly but they never did the job for you and they quite often offered advice in lifeskillls and attitude to a youngster growing up and working with hardworking men in a Blacksmith's Shop. Better for them to set you straight than the Leading Hand or the Foreman to find out you needed to be pulled back into line. I remember these lessons well, I developed a great deal of respect for these mentors and in turn as I learnt and grew, earnt theirs. Not everybody was friendly, there were a few old Curmudgeons who would grudgingly acknowledge you with a grunt or a nod but that was about it. Occasionaly though after you had been there some time they might suddenly decide that you weren't a total ratbag and there might be some hope for you, they might give you a tip or two. I have taught Blacksmithing and other subjects to people of all ages and backgrounds and I turn I have learnt from them, by them asking questions which makes me look at the way I do things too. I have never held back in answering a question or showing anybody anything about the trade, If I can help out I will as I remember what it was like when I started. I don't hold their hand and a bit like the way I learnt if they go away and have a go then come back and show me what they've done and a few more questions at least I know their thinking about the job at hand and having a go. So much of this job is thinking about where you're going and about three steps ahead when you come out of the fire. Getting people to think like a Blacksmith is probably the biggest thing, or trade secret if you like. A good method for teaching and in life is as Ian from South Africa said "Do unto others" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondacker Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 This post was a good one, liked the answers as well as the question. I believe that knowledge isn't knowledge unless its shared. Skill is something akin to wisdom, this you get on your own. The observation by Steve Sells about teaching our kids for the test is spot on. Learning something and mastering it is plain hardwork, if it were easy, well everyone one would be doing it. Adiondacker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Blythin Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I think that any true 'trade secrets', back in the day (say on the Middle Ages), would have been about metallurgy, heat treating, etc. How to heat & beat something into a particular shape, or types of joinery would have been fairly wide-spread knowledge for anyone wanting to know. But if your shop figured out how to make better, more durable stone masons tools - you'd keep that process to youeself. Also, if you read some of the late 19th / early 20th century books on the subject, they were using some pretty nasty and dangerous chemicals (such as cyanide) ... Again, if you were the master, you may be careful who you show that side of the trade. Probably not a good idea to take your new 14 yr old apprentice, on his first day, and ask him to sprinkle cyanide all over the place. Especially if you're then going to have him put on a pot of tea for you and the journeymen on the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Yes there will be a few secrets left. I have stuff I produce for a customer (14-15 years worth). Some of it I have developed but mostly it is their stuff. Come to the shop and you will see tooling for a lot of it hanging around. The rest of the tooling is buried. You also may see tooling or first parts or fixtures for a lot of other things. All you have to do is ask and I will try and explain them. In my youth, we had blacksmiths that fixed farm equipment, we had welders, we had a machinist, we had mechanics and we had one particular fellow that was in a class by himself. His name was Loren. He was a brick mason, finish carpenter, framer and also was a gunsmith. He made firing pins from broken ( warrantied) Craftsman screwdrivers. He knew the craftsman salesman and got the broken stock from him. this man also made his own springs for gun use. The technology and skills to build these springs was passed on to him by his great uncle. His great uncle immigrated to the USA in mid-late 19th century and was hired as a clockmaker for a company in Des Moines Iowa. Loren had success with the use of the knowledge and skills. Loren passed this on to me. Will I attempt to write what I know about it? Not on your life. I could type for a week and my time is not the net. I have passed this information to a few folks. Some will agree with it, some will not. Big deal. I'm not stingy with information. Stop by sometime and we can do the work. I know a man that used to frequent a couple of smithing websites. He was (and is) a vast well of knowledge. After a few years of the net and the personalities involved with it and the arguments, he just quit coming around. This is unfortunately our loss. Kids and grown men that are new to a given skill will ask a lot of questions and then proceed to question and argue about the results sometimes. Timothy covered this problem fairly well. So did Steve. Alec, good on you and the other young smiths. You fellers are the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Doggone it.....I think that someday I would have figured out on my own the glove trick,,and then could have kept it from everyone........ SSSSHHHHHHH!!!!! :ph34r: Don't tell anyone! LOL Yeah that's one of those "duh" type "trade secrets" where the first thought after hearing about it is "that was a great idea," and the second thought is "ok beat my head against a wall because I should have thought of that!" Try it out sometime....it works great. I just need to weld up a handle out of 1/4-inch round. Maybe I'll put five fingers on it and make it look like a hand! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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