basher Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Next year I am planning on making a small power hammer specifically for doing final forging to shape on kitchen knives . loosely based upon the japanese blade smiths hammers. My inclination is towards low tup weight about 10 to15lb and high full speed .300 to 400 bpm. I have anvil material, die material,l tup material, and tup bearing surface. and the pulley shaft to act as a crank/ bearing. I have lots of spring material and am familiar with the manufacture of bow springs being a maker of crossbow prods. I recently saw a power hammer in belgium that was run from an inverter motor controller with no clutch and it seemed to work very well for what it was , especially at low speed. I have owned 3 mechanical hammers and am familiar with how they work and their limitations. one of my main requirements is a small foot print and that leads me to thinking about the possibility of running air as opposed to mechanical. my other thoughts are to have a throwing arm that has two in line coil spring in it as opposed to a bow spring..... I have some questions about exactly how fast air valving can be and what kind of valving set up I would need to get an air cylinder reciprocating at 400 bpm. Am I better off sticking to mechanical... I will update this thread with ideas and designs as I progress. and would be interested in any thoughts any of you have about the idea. All the best Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. K. Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Several years ago I remember seeing a small guided helve hammer on youtube that was running real fast. I looked but I can't find it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmHorus Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 I would like to see the design, I was thinking of building one in the japanese style to replace my 100lb LG.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 i am thinking of a pneumatic jackhammer...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielpiotte Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Owen, I seem to recall an article on South American smiths setting up a Pnumatic jackhammer in a frame for this purpose. They called it a Rattler. Daniel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Pneumatic jack hammers cause me to think of planishing hammers - and those run in the 1000's of BPM. For 300-400 BPM, I would likely design a helve hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 The jackhammer suggestion sounds good to me. Years ago I saw one set up as hammer in a marble quarry in Vermont sharpening small tooling. Worked quite well for the application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I like this idea, not a hammer for doing heavy lifting but light and fast for thin stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick L. Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/16598-high-speed-hammer-company/?hl=%2Bhigh+%2Bspeed+%2Bhammer This thread has a high speed helve exactly like I picked up from a Cutlery Company here in MA. I thought it was for planishing more than forging. Dick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DClaville Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 if I was building one for that I would chose a small tirehammer with 10kg or so ram weight but I am not sure if slipping will be a problem at such high speed but maybe build one using a clutch from a car ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Izy9a9m8k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqwxkyaSws8 is that fast enough what Murray Carter is using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Sounds like a fun project ! My gut feeling is it is a job for springs not air, could you stick the motor up in the roof eaves to shrink the footprint down ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 a little listening on Murrays hammer makes it at least 340bpm (faster when he is welding) so yes that is what I am thinking of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 a little listening on Murrays hammer makes it at least 340bpm (faster when he is welding) so yes that is what I am thinking of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 I have seen a little riveting helve in action and thats not what I need . the japanese hammer in the previous post is what I am after . I am not enamoured with tire hammers . there is just something about them (the tire) that does not compute with my idea of an industrial tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 A very ridgid spring setup Or more bumpers actually would be better I think, short stroke setting on the pitman and a high BPM ratio on the motor hookup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted December 6, 2012 Author Share Posted December 6, 2012 by bumpers do you mean rubber? I think you are about spot on there Sam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Next year I am planning on making a small power hammer specifically for doing final forging to shape on kitchen knives . loosely based upon the japanese blade smiths hammers. My inclination is towards low tup weight about 10 to15lb and high full speed .300 to 400 bpm. I have anvil material, die material,l tup material, and tup bearing surface. and the pulley shaft to act as a crank/ bearing. I have lots of spring material and am familiar with the manufacture of bow springs being a maker of crossbow prods. I recently saw a power hammer in belgium that was run from an inverter motor controller with no clutch and it seemed to work very well for what it was , especially at low speed. I have owned 3 mechanical hammers and am familiar with how they work and their limitations. one of my main requirements is a small foot print and that leads me to thinking about the possibility of running air as opposed to mechanical. my other thoughts are to have a throwing arm that has two in line coil spring in it as opposed to a bow spring..... I have some questions about exactly how fast air valving can be and what kind of valving set up I would need to get an air cylinder reciprocating at 400 bpm. Am I better off sticking to mechanical... I will update this thread with ideas and designs as I progress. and would be interested in any thoughts any of you have about the idea. All the best Owen Years ago I remember visiting Matthias Peters in Stolberg, Aachen he had a feder hammer (toggling leaf spring) in his forge that his blokes all preferred over the Rieter/Kuhn style because of the speed. You might try him for info... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenbeast Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Owen did you ever see a vid of the one i bought from Aly? I'll try to get new footage up this weekend, it's got a 14kg tup (i believe based on dimensions), and seems to run as fast as Murray's above. It's a leaf spring design, small foot print Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenbeast Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don schad Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Perhaps this is similar to what you are interested in: http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/5589-depew-in-action/ Depew helve, I think there is a BP for a cloned version. don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted December 6, 2012 Author Share Posted December 6, 2012 It needs to be upright so a helve is out of the question. I want a small footprint. I am looking fro almost exactly the hammer that Murray has except that I want a slimmer profile for it. I will try and throw some plans together this weekend. I do have another hammer that may fit the bill but the footprint is massive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Basher, how about basing it on my little spring powered Massey? They were cutlers hammers, primarily? It's pretty small, and they go some. If you want any details, let me know. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Running a 10-15 lb. hammer won't require much cfm compressed air nor large cylinders. 300-400 bpm. isn't particularly high, specs on my 50lb LG say 325+ and one of the guys here has a slightly oversized primary pully and his 50 is cranking a good 400. Don't like the tire on a tire hammer eh? So what's not industrial tool about one, weren't wooden pullies and cloth belts industrial standard not so long ago? Okay, so forget a tire, use a rubber wheel with a taper (truncated cone) of largish dia and the powered one an appropriately smaller cone. The clutch mechanism drives the powered cone longitudinally on a spline (or other linear throw mechanism) so first contact with the driven conic section is against it's large diameter with the drive wheel's smallest dia. First contact is lowest RPM and highest torque. As the drive cone progresses it's largest diameter comes in contact and progresses to the driven wheel's smallest dia for highest BPM and lowest torque. Okay, thinking about it, the powered cone probably needs to be on an angle so it makes contact along it's whole length. ANOTHER darned detail to work out! maybe moving the motor too is the simplest answer to this one. <hmmmm> This is the same principle as a snow machine clutch and is called something like an infinitely variable torque converter. something like that, it's been a long time since I read about the things. The principle is so simple I didn't really need to take notes. Another alternative though not so space saving is a Pullmax, they're or can be very fast and have a fairly light hammer weight depending on die. Oh yeah, progress pics are much appreciated, that way we can just copy yours instead of having to figure it out our selves. <grin> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 It needs to be upright so a helve is out of the question. I want a small footprint. I am looking fro almost exactly the hammer that Murray has except that I want a slimmer profile for it. I will try and throw some plans together this weekend. I do have another hammer that may fit the bill but the footprint is massive. What do you need that is different to a Goliath type? They have a small footprint and would appear to run at about the same speed as the one on the video. Or is it that you just fancy making your own? If you do a Google image search on Federhammer, the one I saw at Matthias' was similar to the smallest one of those shown but even so they are quarter or semi elliptic leaf springs / helve style so the anvil is about as far away from the wall as a small air hammer. The Goliath and similar Little Giant format have the smallest footprint front to back that I have seen. Could you have the helve off to the side? I often wondered about mounting a motor and crank on top of a fly press and using the ready made frame and slides for the tup guides... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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