What type of mould and crucible for iron?

[Alathlind]

Hey guys, I'm new to the site and was looking to start doing some smithing work at home. I've gotten instructions on how to make a basic smelter, how to make my own lump charcoal, etc., but I've come across one problem, well, two technically.
I don't know what type of crucible and mold to get!
I looked around on the web and figured out ( I think ) that for smelting iron I would need a clay-graphite crucible and mold. But after looking through a few websites I can't find any, and the ones I did find were written in some extremely specific way that I couldn't make out.
Was wondering if anyone would be able to help me to figure out the type of crucible and mold I would need (was trying to find a long bar mold to cast the basic bar structure for swordmaking, I know the description sucks so I attached a picture of what I mean) and if they could point me to where to find said mold and crucible (for a reasonable price; ~$50), would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,
Alathlind

[Steve Sells]

First: Welcome to the site, I am always glad to see excitement for the craft, but a few things tell me you have the cart before the horse, building a foundry isnt really hard to do, but you have skipped a lot of things that you need to understand before getting into this, which also causes you to be way off in the projected cost to do this.

Second: Starting with iron or steel is not the way to go, its one of the most dangerous, costly and experiance needed types of foundry work, start casting bronze or Aluminum, and after getting real experiance, then move on to other higher temp, more pickey types of casting. As you pregress in your endevours you will learn about why and what is needed for other types of castings.

Third: Smelting is getting the metal from the ores. Procesing ore isnt just melting a pile of rocks and then getting something usable from it. Also it wont be usable steel from the smelter even when you do get to know what to do, its most likely going to be wrought iron, that you then need to convert to steel. I doubt you have the knowledge to get iron from ore at this point in your hobby, because many dont unless they have already done it with someone. Very few experianced people are crazy enough to make their own crucible for iron.

Fourth: One does not cast iron or steel into sword shapes, only hollywood does that. They are forged, and forging blades is not a beginner skill, First one must learn some basic black smithing.

Fifth: I suggest you buy a bar of steel, and read some of the threads in this forum. Many of the things I touched on, have already been explained in more detail there. then move on to the general smithing, after that try the blade section.

Welcome to the site, I hope I didnt kill your dreams, you CAN learn to do these things in time. I am sorry if I popped your balloon.

[Fe-Wood]

Welcome to the site!
You are referencing 2 very distinct ways of working metal but your picture is specific to blacksmithing. Rather than pursuing foundry work (casting Iron) I would spend my time and money building up my Forge and forging.
Steve has given you some great advise!I hope you use it!
This site has everything you will need to begin forging in terms of knowledge. Take a look around, begin forging, have fun and be safe!

[Alathlind]

Many thanks, to both of you. In all honesty I guess I was just very eager to kind of just jump right into it, and didn't put too great of an amount of thought in. What few details I found about iron casting weren't acquired without me checking through the workings of non-ferrous metals, so looking back now I think I pretty much know everything I would need to start with the simpler, non-ferrous metals (such as bronze, aluminum, etc)
But as always over-zealousness can lead to failure, so yes I suppose it would be a much better to start off with simpler metals and work my way up.

One problem I encountered, however, after looking throughout the web and forums, is that I cannot seem to find steps on how to combine the tin and copper together to make the bronze. I would assume it's essentially just as simple as melting together a certain ratio of each metal together in the crucible, then pouring the molten metal into the mold (graphite ingot mold presumably).

I'm not sure if it's my attempted search phrases to find any guides on it, or what, but as I said I simply cannot find any guides on it anywhere.
But as my first post stated, this is something that I'm newly looking to try my hand at, so please forgive my inexperience/naivety.

Anyhow, much thanks on the previous tips.

[Fe-Wood]

For Bronze, go to Atlas metals and buy Everdur 655 Silicon Bronze. It is very cast able and user friendly. Making your own Bronze takes years of practice and equipment.

If you still want to cast something, try lead free pewter. It melts at a low temp and is workable with a plumbers tourch. This is an inexpensive way to get a feel for casting-

[Bentiron1946]

With many more years of casting behind me than in front of me I would suggest that you follow FeWoods advice and practice with some very easy to work with silicon bronze it will get you off on a very positive note in the fine art of casting. I started off trying to use scrap plumbing fixtures and boy was that an attempt at failure, off gassing, no pyrometer to check if I had the metal hot enough to pour, cold molds, just lots of ignorance about casting. However I guess it was all good experience doing it the wrong way because I sure learned how to do it the right way over time. Bronze age swords were usually cast in stone molds or in clay molds where there was a wax model on the inside that was burned out, the same for axes, daggers, spear heads and arrowheads. Once the Iron Age came along it was the start of the ascendancy of the blacksmith and the forging of these items for wrought iron instead of cast bronze. I not saying that there was no wrought bronze but most of it was cast except for helmets, shields, jewelry, cooking utensils. Quite a number of very large cauldrons were of forged bronze and then the sheets of bronze riveted together. This was an age when the metalsmith was nearly as magical as the shaman and held in high regard in the community. He held the secrete of turning stone into metal, now that is magic!
Anyway it is easier today to buy your bronze already made up in ingots from a major supplier than to try to make it yourself. I have done it and it doesn't take any specialize equipment, just a means of melting the metal and a means of getting the proportions correct. You will learn as you go on how to do it. Be careful as molten is unforgiving if you are careless, it will burn a hole clean through you in a nanosecond so wear you leathers, face shield and head covering and sturdy leather boots and tape up the laces so no little glob of metal can get in there, you'd be surprised how long it takes to get your boots off with a glob of metal the size of a BB burning the inside of your boot.

[ThomasPowers]

Most information on casting iron refers to Cast Iron a material with way more carbon than high carbon steel. It melts at a fairly low temperature compared to steel or a "pure iron" but still much hotter than things like bronze. It is also pretty much useless for weapons save for mass items like crude mace heads. Look into Cupola for melting cast iron Lindsay Books, www.lindsaybks.com, has several detailing the process.

Casting of steel was not used in Europe until the 1700's with the Huntsman process though it was known in earlier times in Central Asia where Wootz and crucible steels were known and made---but NOT cast into weapons as casting leaves very large grain structure making for very weak weapons. Casting an ingot and then forging it out refined the grain. You need a much higher temp crucible and FULL PPE!!! to avoid permanent damage to yourself casting steel than bronze!!!

Many different alloys of bronze were used for bronze age weapons---it's almost like a whole bunch of people were doing it with no access to libraries or the internet! I prefer a 90:10 copper to tin mix. You generally melt the higher melting temp metal and then add in the lower melting temp metal, mix; degass and pour ASAP!

Learning to cast from someone that knows what they are doing can save you months if not years of trying to re-invent the wheel on your own---not to mention saving all the time, money and pain (and ER visits!)---a drop of sweat from off your nose can result in permanent disfiguration or even death if it falls into a mold you are getting ready to pour!

My casting started with taking an out of hours brass casting class at a local University's fine arts department that worked with oil sand for the mould material. There are a lot of backyard metal casters though and you should be able to find one local to yourself. (search on those terms for their forums!)

As a blacksmith you don't need a long bar to make a steel or wrought iron sword---I can make one starting with a sphere! For Bronze you can cast quite close to shape and then hammer to harden it and finish the shaping.

Finally a bloomery smelter can produce anything from cast iron---considered a waste product, high carbon wrought iron to extremely low carbon wrought iron. (And of course the repeated folding and forge welding of processing wrought iron tends to *DROP* the carbon content.)

[Bentiron1946]

If you finish filling in your profile and let us know what general part of the world you are located in perhaps we can hook you up with a local founders group and/or individual. I reinvented the wheel for myself, well more or less, see I went to the library, preinternet days, and got books on how the ancients did and went from there but now there is the internet to connect us all together so if you can give us a location it may help us hook you up. Casting is such a glorious thing to do, it just "lights your fire" so to speak. I never got tired of the pour. There is something special about the transformation from a solid, well kind of solid, to a liquid back to a solid. I'm just total hooked on metal, something that comes from a rock and is turned into a useful object. That's the wonder of us smiths, we get to be a part of that process, we made(and make) civilization happen.

[JNewman]

I used to enjoy watching diesel locomotive frames getting poured at the foundry I started my apprenticeship at. They poured them in a pit beside the entrance that was near the pattern shop. You were not allowed to pass while they were pouring so you had to wait while they poured. They would pour about 20,000lb of steel into the mould in 35 seconds, from a bottom pour ladle.

[Northwoodsman]

I am also new to this form. I was wondering what crusibles would be good for a charcoal furnace and refining steels to make crucible steels. I want to be able to slide the ingot right out of the crucible if I can since I'm relitivly young and have very little money. I want all of this to have good steel for forging and a crucible that I can use a few times. 

[ThomasPowers]

Howdy Northwoodsman; can you tell us what you are trying to accomplish by melting and pouring your own?  Lot cheaper to buy steel than to melt it and most ingots are poured not left in the crucible (and destruction of the crucible is often part of the ones that are left in the crucible to cool).  Doing it on the cheap is like saying you want to participate in Formula One races but are not willing to buy high speed tires...Melting steel is dangerous---proper safety equipment is expensive.  Doing it on the cheap may help you win the Freddy Kruger look alike contests...

[Northwoodsman]

Well I am working on starting my own blacksmith shop and I have a lot of waist marital. I wish to reuse it and make crucible steel out of my waste metal. I have part of the recipe just need to refine it some I got it from a few documentaries and I wish to use it to make some nice end swords. So what I would like to know is how can I make or go out and by a crucible that would be able to have an iron ingot cooled inside and come out ok and ready to use 3 more times at least. And forgot to mention I want it also semi sealable does not have to be air tight though.

 

Sorry if my grammar and spelling is a bit bad. I still have not been able to full understand English due to some learning issues when I was young.

[JHCC]

Northwoodsman, what you're suggesting is dangerous, requires expensive safety gear, probably won't give you the results you want, and will take up a lot of time and money that you can better use for other things.

Kind of like pro football.

If you're just starting out and your end goal is to make high-end swords, you need to devote every spare moment to developing your blademaking skills: design, forging technique, grinding, finishing, etc, etc, etc. Making your own metal from scrap sounds like a cool idea, but you'd probably be much better off just buying the steel. 

[Northwoodsman]

Yes I know it is not entirely safe but I kinda like that little thrill of it. I do however do my best to be safe. So what would you suggest that I do for safety equipment and stuff like that. I also know that it is just a hobby to most but I'm not super smart or most likely good at restaurants either but weapon making is where my heart is at. I'm also not done with schooling but I won't let road blocks get in the way. I have built up a strong passion for this and a huge dream of mine to have my own shop even if it does not make much money at all. 

[Latticino]

If you want to be safe, and your learning abilities are as described, I strongly suggest you take a formal class (preferably at an accredited school with insurance and an OSHA compliant shop).  There is simply too much information to convey about safely making weapons like swords from bulk material to learn from videos and Q&A sessions on a forum.  Hands on instruction will let you learn the subtleties, hopefully introduce you to shop requirements and practices, and give you an idea of just how much you need to learn just to take the first steps towards your goal.  It will almost definitely be less expensive in the long run as well, as you will avoid costly mistakes in equipment selection, purchase and setup.

Don't get me wrong.  I've met quite a few fantastic young blade and sword smiths.  It is possible, but hardly an easy path.  Most of the ones I know have had direct, in person, formal training of some sort.

[Northwoodsman]

I have taken a class and learned from family and have been watching many countless videos on it and studying there stances and all sorts of things I've also built a small forge and have made semi ok knives. I want to expand to making good metals and that's where my help has not gone so far yet. I do have sessions planned with family members that are full time blacksmiths to teach me the final information on blade making. What I wish to know from the people on the form is how to achieve my goal of making iron that can pop out of a crucible without having to hack it apart every time. I have very limited money to spend on crucibles more than once since I don't have an actual job yet. I want to use the time to establish my name in the business so I don't have to go work for another business when I get a little older. 

so over all my goal is to be able to make many crap peices of metal into good sword metals on my own. I have three choices. Figure out how to remove a crucible from a fire around 3100 degrees most likely or find a cheap clay to make crucibles or have a crucible that the metal when cold will slide right out, maybe like a graghit one. 

 

Sorry if im being difficult to help at all I do appreciate your help on trying to make me understand. 

[ThomasPowers]

I suggest you look into scrapmascus as a starter and work your way towards crucible steel after your skills on all the other parts of blade making get honed.  Turning your waste into crucible steel is probably the most expensive way to go.  If you lived in the USA I would suggest saving and attending classes at one of the ABS schools and ILL "Steelmaking before Bessemer: vol 1 Blister steel and Vvol 2 Crucible steel".  You also might profit from the "fool proof" plans for a small bloomery provided as an appendix in "The Mastery and Uses of Fire in Antiquity"  and finally the PhD thesis of Dr Feuerbach "Crucible Steel in Central Asia"

Also if those documentaries were each one under 40 hours long they didn't have nearly enough info in them...

Remember 1 ER visit can cost thousands of dollars which blows the budget out of the water very well indeed!

[Northwoodsman]

Yes I've probably put in in watching how to blacksmith type videos. I've probably spent 100-200 hours of watching people blacksmith and doing it myself I've spent maybe 30 hours or more. I forgot to mention this earlier but I have done a lot of casting before with aluminum so I know how all that works but the issue like I keep saying is to get the iron out from a crucible without damage to the crucibles inside so I can keep taking the steel out easily. Can also be in liquid form also.

With the price of steel I can make one sword out of it if I bought it. With the scrap I have I can make 2 maybe even 3. 

And yes I know the dangers of fire and how bad it can be and I have learned from many mistakes in my 13 years of building fires. 

what crucible can take heat of 3100 degrees plus and a pair of tongs that won't melt when I pour the metal in a mold. Or a crucible that will allow the iron puck to slide out with little ease and not have to be destroyed every time. 

[ThomasPowers]

I can buy enough good steel to make a sword for US$1  The fuel to melt steel to make a billet would cost me over US$20  tell me again about the savings? Add in the cost of the crucible, tools, time, furnace,...savings???

The steel I buy would already be *much* closer in size and shape to the blade than a cast puck and so I would save *many* hours of forging to size and shape.  If you want to do this as a job you need to remember that time and fuel cost money!

If you have years of experience casting Al you know squat about casting steel; it's very different!

Tools for working those temps; tungsten and platinum both are good for high heat.

What flux(es) will you be using as that will make a difference in extracting an ingot.

Frankly I don't want the liability of suggesting workarounds to you. I suggest you contact a crucible seller and ask them about crucibles rated for molten steel and equipment to handle them.

Also have you read this thread:

 http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?7243-What-crucible-to-melt-Alloy-steel-Only-for-ferrous-metals

There was a fellow on Sword Forum International that was using thermite to do custom alloying of steels; very interesting until they day he posted that his safety equipment was evidently not enough and he was going blind and so was giving up his experiments...

[Northwoodsman]

I know the fuel that I use will be charcoal and I know how to produce it. We have had a few bad storms come through the past summer and many trees went down and I have lots of wood that I can convert to charcoal. So fuel will not be an issue. The flux (whenever I see flux I oddly think of the flux comasitor from back to the future)  that I'm going to use is sand and a shard of glass how much is my missing piece to my recipe. Like I've said before I have all the components to melt iron just missing the crucible to control my factors in the melting of the iron. But yes thank you for the link I did read a part of it and I feel kinda stupid for not looking at tungsten tongs for a way to get the crucible out of my furnace. But yes thank you I believe I may have found a way to fix my issue. Sorry though if I caused any of you great pain trying to tell me it's dangerous (well aware, have some burns to prove that lucky nothing of great extent) but yes thank you for your help and I'm going to look into this stuff a bit more. And again thank you so much. 

[Daswulf]

I cant imagine any more "good" info then you got. so you've been burned by melting aluminum? ( from what I see that is your experience) ugh. ok. hey I'm a nobody from the outside looking in with the trust in the people warning you. If they say you would save money and misery buying known steel they are right. if you were ready to work molten steel I would think you would have done the research to know ALL of what you need by now. all I am saying is you keep blowing off guys with way more experience than you that are trying to tell you some facts. after that I only "hope" you are successful and dont wind up in intensive care. some people do get lucky throughout life. no offense intended and good luck.

[Northwoodsman]

With the dangers that you are telling me how can I avoid them without all the safety equipment, and what is the safety equipment that I need so when I get enough I can buy it. 

 

you cant avoid buying safety gear, why do you refuse to pay attention   STOP before you kill yourself

 

[Latticino]

I'm going to put this very simply, as it appears we are not getting through to you:

1. The most important safety equipment you will need is to have someone who already knows how to cast steel on hand to walk you through the process a couple of times if you are really planning on trying it.  Thermal suits, Kevlar gloves, type 3 face shields, powered respirators are only tools to help that may not be effective in keeping you safe if you don't know how to cast steel.  Most of us don't cast steel.  The industrial process is well setup to provide superior materials at attractive pricing, and there is no reasonable way to compete on an individual scale, unless you are attempting to make inferior steels to show off the beauty of the impurities.  That is a valid avenue, but Thomas's suggestion for making "scrap-mascus" or melting down existing scrap steel into a puck, which can then be forged, is a safer and more likely to be successful path (it also doesn't need a crucible and can be done on a blown air-charcoal fire...).
2. Swords are not just big knives, they are vastly more difficult to design, forge, grind, heat treat and fit out correctly.  If you haven't made more than a couple of semi-OK knives you may not be ready to make a sword.  Please read the stickies and posts on the forum regarding this, I don't have time or energy to repeat them.
3. While I think your goal of being a self sufficient weapon maker is laudable, it is also highly impractical and is unlikely to result in any kind of positive cash flow in the immediate future.  I recommend getting a job doing something else to support your new passion.
4. Adding making your own steel to the mix will most likely result in additional frustration.  Imagine after working for a couple of weeks to forge and grind out your billet to find that you had a hidden inclusion that ruins the project.  This happens pretty regularly to experienced folks who are only doing pattern welding or using blister steel for making smaller objects.  The larger the project, the more chance you will have of a catastrophic failure.
5. It is very unlikely that the mystery steel you will produce from scrap materials will be better quality than that coming from a mill.  In any event it will not be a known quantity so a period of testing will be needed to develop an optimum heat treatment process to get close to the performance you will get from known steels.  Of course this may not be important to you if you are only looking to make a wall hangar.
6. It is also very unlikely that  pouring out your steel into a form will result in any kind of efficiency in making weapons.  The steel you make from scrap or raw materials will most likely need consolidation to bring it to the homogeneity that will be required for sword forging.  That process will negate and advantage to pouring the material into a mold.

[Northwoodsman]

I plan on pouring into a bar mold. after I figured out a way to get the crucible out of the furnace. And since I have two years to go until I have to leave high school I have some time to make a recipe for the scrap. But yes I know the dangers and that is the reason that I like this. And the challenge of making my own steel. It would give me a sense of pride to succeed. But yeah if I fail by the end of if the two years the. I plan on buying the steel.

[ThomasPowers]

As a starter project: back yard bloomeries can be built and run cheaply and use charcoal.  The Tatara furnace is the japanese version and is extolled by folks (not realizing their own cultural background did this stuff as well.)   Also if you have scrap you may want to look into making orishnagane.

And as has been mentioned melting steel is NOT something to work on by yourself.  Working with someone who is skilled at it will save years of messing around and possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars.     I was able to attend Ric Furrer's "three ways of making steel" presentation and Al Pendray's one on making wootz (both at Quad-State and I volunteered to be their helper for both so I could ask "why Al used the specific type of glass for flux...?" and floated a fake eyeball in Ric's slack tub...) I've been a part of a bloomery team for over a decade as well.