Alan Evans Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Use away..it is a variant on something I recall seeing in the 1980's. It is a trap to see other's work or an historic trend/style...you become used to some shapes and then you (well... "I") unconsciously incorporate them...its insidious. I have done play work in the shop from time to time and rather like one result or where it leads to others...only to see something similar in the library....the question becomes "Did I do that shape or did my subconscious see an opportunity and pull me that way?" I am so much the control freak that I do not even like being led by myself. Ric I recognise myself in everything you say above. I know exactly how you feel, the fear of plagiarism, versus the desire to emulate! But I also note that when you weren't worrying about it in the first post quoted above; you generously allowed someone else to be inspired by your piece and also openly admitted to having been inspired by the work of another! Give yourself the same credit! It has all been done before, (most of it by Gaudi!) We will inevitably be copying somebody whatever we do, so we may as well copy the work that we like! There are a couple of things I have verbalised to myself over the years about this. One can think of forms we use as vocabulary, just words, it is how you put them together and the story they tell that makes your work a poem or a thriller or a rant! Nobody expects Shakespeare to have invented all the words he used, maybe he struck lucky and did find a few that needed inventing! There is another analogy with that of a virtuoso musician playing a classical piece, they are playing the same notes on the score; but the interpretation, the feel they give it, sets it apart. I think if you really like something that someone else has done then it is really important to try and identify why that is; what elements or combination of elements are in the piece that you admire. Using the forms as vocabulary idea I try and identify how the story is being told. Rather than make a slavish copy I then try and distill that essence and use it to tell a different story! My starting point nowadays is with the site and the way people use it to give me a lead-in to the sort of character the piece needs. Then I try and find shapes and spaces and processes that describe and support that spirit. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 alan just quickly read this with my morning cuppa - i think i could have put that Should bit differently! i was Most Certainly not refering to dangers piece, which i personally thought was marvellous - and have written as such in his post!! i was more referring to a non specific element, that we are thinking about for the sake of the conversation, and i was suggesting the taper that starts as a fibannacci one, in my oppinion, in the more traditional setting, where traditional style was being adopted is better finished as one. having said that, i contradict myself, as i had not consciosly noticed the fact that parts of michaels did not do this - and i had accepted the work visually entirely and really enjoyed it ... :) i hear what your saying about no Should, but if someone is attempting a traitional looking piece, they run the risk of it jarring if they DONT follow some 'rules" ...? i dont think this is how we should all work, i cant work like this even if i wanted to because i dont have the skill to execute it. and i like to follow my heart a little more. but at the end of the day your heart has unavoidable taken influence at the hands of the traditional, for good or for bad... i really should not just waffle on before ive woken properly ;) i will re read the rest now i have put any insult to dangers fabulous work out of the question!@!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) alan just quickly read this with my morning cuppa - i think i could have put that Should bit differently! i was Most Certainly not refering to dangers piece, which i personally thought was marvellous - and have written as such in his post!! i was more referring to a non specific element, that we are thinking about for the sake of the conversation, and i was suggesting the taper that starts as a fibannacci one, in my oppinion, in the more traditional setting, where traditional style was being adopted is better finished as one. having said that, i contradict myself, as i had not consciosly noticed the fact that parts of michaels did not do this - and i had accepted the work visually entirely and really enjoyed it ... :) i hear what your saying about no Should, but if someone is attempting a traitional looking piece, they run the risk of it jarring if they DONT follow some 'rules" ...? i dont think this is how we should all work, i cant work like this even if i wanted to because i dont have the skill to execute it. and i like to follow my heart a little more. but at the end of the day your heart has unavoidable taken influence at the hands of the traditional, for good or for bad... i really should not just waffle on before ive woken properly ;) i will re read the rest now i have put any insult to dangers fabulous work out of the question!@!! When I re-read you earlier post I realised how you probably meant it. I picked you up on it because of my own agenda...stressing that there should be fewer not more rules! I think if you are doing restoration work you owe it to the original artist to get into his head, hands, tools and processes and do as faithful a copy as possible. I then extrapolate that to honour the way he worked by designing and making things for our time using the tools, materials and processes at my disposal. Well at least attempting to. Alan Edited August 21, 2012 by blackersmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 how did that happen.... :ph34r: ! I somehow managed to do a double post on the other thread just now, odd ain't it. I discovered that you can go back and edit it by deleting the bulk of the words which means it takes up less space on the page but you cannot delete the post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 alan its such food for thought - i have been thinking just now whilst washing up as to what it is that prevents me to date being truly expressive in this medium, and it is partly to do with the weight of tradition and the massive Virtue i give that as opposed to my Art background which is harder, in my circles, to justify,,, maybe my puritanical up bringing :) (im sure it is..) i do not find this anywhere near so difficult in other mediums, and michael what your saying about resonance and vibration is absolutely true in ANY creative sphere - and IS evident in your work. it is Not evident in my metal work, but occasionally is in a tantalisingly small way in my drawings or sculptures. the area that interests me now is trying to understand the metal more, and being able to get access to "myself "within it, ( resonance from yourself to the material - the best sound waves really) although even as i say it the monkey on my back says this is Selfish Artist talk :) but its all we really have to offer the world in terms of what we create - the Personal, and how we think and feel ourselves, how we experience things. i read a quote recently about an artists job being a "witness to being alive" and that is a place i want to inhibit more fully ! it is of course another question as to wether you want to approach this thing as an expressive practise free from limitiations and pre concieved ideas, or a highly skilled craftsman built upon years of tradition and accepted form... the reason i even find myself in this area rather than just in my studio is the massive pull of tradition ( along with the actual material and the general 3D excitement :) ) and my geniuine childlike awe for the sheer skill of what has gone before, and the unbeliveable beauty of what has gone before.. there is a middle ground, and i am determined to find it! it is almost impossible for me to formulate clear thoughts on here ( or anywhere) becasue it is the summer holidays and all of my children are talking to me about different subjects as i type, to do with a game of tennis i have foolishly promised ( i want to think about marks on metal....) and where are we going to get balls, where one of them is going to find the next part for a computor he is building, and an amazing thing one of them has seen where you tape spray paint to the botom of your skateboard and map your path in a huge cast concrete bowl.... so you'll excuse the slight lack of focus, but this is a subject i am Very interested in, maybe i will come back tonight - i want to talk more with you all about the whole plagersim dynamic - ric it is something we all struggle with i think, but in this work as well as in music, something else i dabble in, this paranoia of ours is a handicap and can only serve to make us self conscious when we are at work : ( a Bad thing :)!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Beth you have been more than kind and I have never taken anything you have written to be derogatory. I hope you don't take this the wrong way but, you speak as if you should be able to produce your vision in iron without struggle, why? What would we do without it? I go out of my way to find it! I always remember a little thing Hofi once told me "Iron is xxxx" why would a craftsman of his level say this? Embrace the struggle. Btw I really like the spray paint on skateboard idea! Here is a link to sculptor John Fisher who talks about the golden rule but also how to see, struggle and my favorite hard work! Again, I am waiting for pictures Alan.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egonh941TrY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 danger - :) dont panic - its just my turn of phrase - i enjoy the struggle, it IS the process, i enjoy the whole subject of the struggle! and i very much like talking about it all and trying to define it. and as well becasue it changes continually. metal is not my primary means of expresion, i am still new to it, and like i said i get dazzled by the glare of everyone elses apparent technical skill, and this gets in my way. :) my ego wants to be good at that stuff, but i am finding that mindset is a total dampener on expression. for me, this stuff is not Really the point, its not the end story and i have to keep reminding myself along the way that technical skills in and of themself will not make me happy... the thing with any functionable item i have tried to make, it DOES require planning and thought and preconcieved design, which is great and the thought of working these things out is appealing on some level, But it does not go hand in hand with the approach i like to use in other areas, of almost unconscious directly felt work, where i make desicions in the moment based on many things but not necasarily Design or Thought out reasons. this is why i love to think about the golden ratio and all that stuff, but i would not want to conciosuly PUT IT IN something, rather, be pleased to find thopse rythms afterwards if you see what i mean. i spent a little time in the workshop the other day (my time is very disjointed - v frustrating so its hard to get a train of thought and stay with it for constant interruption :) ) and made a decision to ignore what Should be done and in what order ( or what i percieve those things to be! - i am my own worst enemy and a tragic over thinker..) ) and to just use the same approach as i have been in my other artistic persuits. this sounds very simple and a no brainer, but life is not like that is it? what is obvious maybe to some of you lot has not been obvious to me. so, i made some shapes and marks, making vague desisions as i went, let things split and stretch, and it felt very good. when i Next get in there, i will certainly persue more of that. i need to treat this subject like i would any other, thats all!! having said that - to get the confidence and power that alan describes, and achieves, this process has to be refined and a lot of time spent. the sculptors video was very good - i like his style, and his energy. what i want to get away from somewhat though, is the planning aspect... and its problematic in this medium - like i said about your airelion ( scuse the spelling ) i was amazed you got so much movement and spontineity into something that must have been an engineering/safety nightmare. these are the things that would slay mere mortals ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Most architectural work mainly being composition of line and form can be difficult to get away from the rigor of a plan. I think there is a way you may try, make as much stuff as you can, shapes lines and textures, then assemble. Just lay them on the ground and look for connections, what flows what doesn't, develop your composition without thinking just feeling maybe this will get you closer to discovering your own method. Aileron was born from a model that was intuitive but the large scale piece had very little room for that type of thought it was just scaled up from the original. I too wish to create intuitively and I am about ready to dive into the deep end. It is in my mind a luxury to be able to do that type of work because it is less accept, especially as a selling point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgivun Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I wouldn't normally post a music video to a blacksmithing site, but since the fibonacci sequence has been mentioned I thought some of you math buffs might get a kick out of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 My computer just won't play that loud enough ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Alan Nature by Numbers animation is a cool video. Myself I work the space backwards when I need a scroll I make the rectangular I need and work the space down with the dividers. makes it very easy and you get the scroll you need. When you get a chance take a look at Philip Simon's work in Charleston SC. He was big on scrolls and space relation. The dividers are a fun project and you have to follow the dimensions to make them work there are some on the market but they are expensive. http://www.weirdsky.com/golden-mean-calipers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 danger thats very good advice about laying many pieces out and looking for links and flow patterns - i like that idea thanks :) also, i do realise the approach im on about has in no way a direct link to making any Money....(although the honesty required will produce something very resonant, and in my oppinion that makes it ultimately sale able to Someone! in principal..!) this renders it a luxury for most, or at least something that must be squeezed in after money has been earned... and crow barring this type of work in where there are little gaps in your time is not easy, its something that requires a lot of your time and focus.... i am not the main wage earner (thank god) and i can spend at least some of my time behaving in this way, although, not being the main wage earner has other drains on my time! its good to focus on what we want creatively in an ideal world, and perhaps what will yield the finest results :) goo dluck with your dive into the deep end - i will watch with interest - Please share the results!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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