Steam Hammers

[John Larson]

John, I would deeply appreciate that info. Thanks for offering it.

[forgemaster]

You often see written in books that steam hammers are so much better than pneumatic hammers because they can do single blow, can squeeze and have a lot better control, OK size for size weight for weight they may pack a bigger blow, mainly because the driver can if necessary really flog the blows into the hammer, but there is a trade off, you either need a boiler or fairly large air comp and res.  A Massey can be started with the push of a button, and be ready for forging with in about 10 seconds, when we used the steam hammer it was a case of light off the boiler,wait for 45 minutes to get up steam, warm up the pipes, warm up the hammer, etc etc couple this with needing to get the boiler certified each year, and needing to have someone with a boiler attendants cert to run it, and it takes some sort of fuel to run the boiler.  Even with using compressed air you have to wait for it to pump up etc etc.  With a Massey Clear Space you have a hammer that will clamp/squeeze give a definite single blow with a seperate movement of the control lever needed for each blow, they can be easily be put into drive (automatic blows) from single blow without having to put the dies together, and return again to single blow without having to lower the tup onto the bottom die.  I'll have to see if I can bet hold of some of the footage of the Moon and I making the hook at "Forging in July" at Eveleigh under the 7cwt clear space.  That footage shows how the hammer can be used as easily as a steam hammer for jobs which the old guys would say can only be performed with a steamy.   I'd take one Massey size for size over 4 other types of air hammers/steam hammers pnuematic hammers any day.

 

Phil

[HJP]

 Phil  i did film you and Moon making the hook  and i did send moony a copy   (DVD)  it should be on there what you are talking about,    i would post it on youtube but my computer skills a the same as my Chinese    Cheers Hans

[forgemaster]

Thanks John I'll hit the moon up for it.

[JNewman]

Other Massey users, do you ever have a problem with the oil dipstick and a bunch of oil being blown out when using the single blow/squeeze setting?  The previous users of my hammer started the hammer in low pressure hold up and I have always done the same as going from hold down to low pressure hold up the dipstick gets blown out.  As well the treadle guard on the hammer interferes with the treadle going all the way up which is not a problem at all when using the hammer with the treadle.   As the handles are on the opposite side of the hammer I am not sure exactly when the oil blows out but I suspect it is during the high pressure hold down. 

 

I am ordering a plate burnout today to make a new treadle guard as I had to extend the treadle last week so I could run the hammer from the back side.  I had to forge a bunch of 12' long chisel bars and it was either punch a hole in the wall (which I considered)  or run them through from the back on a 45.  My dies are 9"x3.5" so I could not run them on the ends of the dies.  I am also ordering steel for new 8" square dies this week so I can run them on the other side from the front.  They are going to take a while to machine though I will probably have to run the bars through from the back again.    

[iron woodrow]

I never have had that problem on the MASSEYs I have used, the Clearspace #5s I've used have heavy weighted dipstick heads, maybe to stop such a problem happening....

and the #1 guided hammers have the oilers on the near side.

one of the #5s really huffs and puffs in hold up mode, and stirs up dust underneath, but no launching of dipsticks!

[nonjic]

Ive seen them throw the dipstick ! It should be a pretty tight fit in the filler cap (earlier hammers did not have the stick at all)

 

Ive seen lots of CSPH's with a modification to hold it in place (screw and tab, or whatever)

 

The treadle guards can be a real compromise. They were a retrofit to earlier hammers, then become standards, after a 'slip squish' accident. I find them to be quite handy for dropping tooling on, most people take them off !

[JNewman]

My treadle guard is really handy for piling tools on while I am working  (can't have enough horizontal surfaces in a shop)  I do drop work sometimes and having heavy work on the treadle could get exiting.  My guard looks like it was shop built and it is pretty beat up anyways. It drops over the anvil so the head either has to be fastened up or the hammer running to take it on or off which I don't like especially since it is pretty heavy/awkward to take on or off by myself.  The new one will be open in the back with a piece that drops in. 

 

I will have to think about a retainer. 

[forgemaster]

yeh we have blown the dip stick out occasionally, fixed it by going and swapping the older style cap out of our spare 5, no dipstick but no blowouts either.  We don't have a treadle guard, probably should, its something we talk about, we have dropped stuff on it over the years, everyone just stands back until the offending item falls onto the floor.  Last time it happened the ringing saddle ended up wedged over the edge of the top die.  The main problem we have figured with having a guard is when we use single blow with the pedal we drive with our heel and sit our toes on the edge of the anvil base cap, having a guard there will stop us doing this, needs some thought put into the design I feel before we go down this road.

[forgemaster]

To get this thread back onto steam hammers after it had been rudely hijacked by owners of massey clear space owners, we own a steam/converted to air hammer which I bought from the steel works here in Newcastle.  As you will see from the photo attached it has a non standard top cover, which houses a buffer which stops the rod from smashing into the the top cover (if there was a std top cover there).  All the larger hammers at the steelworks (BHP) had this buffer fitted, it has 2 lines going to it, one from the incoming supply pipe, and the other comes from or to the exhaust pipe.

My question is are these an "off the shelf item" or are they a modification the BHP has manufactured themselves, I have seen photos of hammers in Europe with what looks to be the same thing fitted.  Anyone know?

Also can these buffers operate with steam as well as air, or is it just air only, the hoses going into to buffer are actually hydraulic hoses, biut it is air which is going through them.

 

Phil

[forgemaster]

As far as I can see the addition of the buffer top was to allow the removal of the trigger, which the hammer head would hit if it was brought up too fast, if the trigger was not there the hammer would/could smash into the top cap and also probably the gland at the bottom of the cylinder.  The problem with the trigger was when the hammer would hit it, the control handle which the trigger was attached to would normally nearly break the hand of the hammer driver, he'd let go of the handle and the hammer would go out of control.

[JNewman]

Speaking of steam hammers I was in a shop the other day with about a dozen steam hammers.  They were on a shutdowm so none were running but the "small hammer"  in the shop was 3000lb.   It was a closed die shop and they want me to make some tongs for them.  Hopefully I get a chance to see things running when I deliver the tongs. 

[Jim Kehler]

The hammers I have experience with had a cap with a spring inside attached to a pin that went into the cylinder so the piston would hit the pin before it hit the top.

[John Larson]

Phil, this thread is not exclusive to steam hammers at this point, but rather an educational thread where truly experienced hammer users are educating those of us like me who need the lessons.  Your response has been in video and written form and has shown me some of the aspects of "best hammers",. and John Nicholson's postings have been invaluable as well.  So don't stop giving lessons, please.  I'm really appreciative.

[John Larson]

On steam hammers and self-contained hammers, the amount of pressure on top of the piston at near the top of the up-stroke is sometimes not very high and is below atmospheric in a Beche. So top cushions have to be designed with this in mind. The yellow cap on the steam hammer that you have shown with two hoses undoubtedly holds a piston that is pushed perhaps by a rod that the regular ram piston pushes near the top of the stroke. The little top hose feeds that cushion piston needed pressure (perhaps from the bottom of the regular ram piston).

[forgemaster]

Hey John
Its cool, just didn't want the OP to think we were hijacking his tread for Non steam hammer purposes, (perish the thought). I don't really want to know how these caps work (although what you said is interesting) I was interested to see if these were an off the shelf item somewhere, this hammer in Europe has almost an identical looking cap on it.
One day when I have the time, I'll pull that cap off and have a look inside of it. When this thing was in operation and when the hammer driver let the hammer go to the top of stoke in between jobs, there was an audible clang as the rod hit whatever it was in there. The guys that worked under it said that to get a longer fuller harder blow they would actually drive the rod up into the buffer in order to get a run at it so as to speak, (sort of like a forging version of an Evil Kenevil ramp)

[forgemaster]

While on the subject of hammer guards and safety etc, and while looking through my files for those photos I also found a photo of a temporary disposeable hammer guard/safety shield for hand hammers too.

 

(This is to be taken with a grain of salt too guys, I'm not being serious here, just made me laugh seeing the photo thought I'd share)

[nonjic]

I have seen the buffer cylinders (buffer pistons) on quite a lot of hammers. They tend to be fitted to 'stamping' closed die hammers, as once you are off the foot treadle and onto the trimming press the ram is going to reciprocate back up to the top on its own.

I have seen them on 'Erie' , Chambesburg, Huta Zygmundt, various Russian & Massey closed die hammers. I can only recall seeing them on Erie open die hammers.

 

Don't half make a clang when you smack the ram piston into them! Basically they are just a deep disk with piston rings round the diameter, and a smaller diameter that the other piston head smacks into. Sometimes they are seated on a cone face. The ones ive experience of have a permanent feed of air to them from the top.

 

Ive got a video on my phone of a 6000lb erie open die we rebuilt 'topping out' into the buffer - Ill throw it onto youtube later when I get a chance.

[John Larson]

More good info. I really like the looks of that modern day steam hammer with the two posts and horizontal beams to hold the guides and cylinder. Could use that design right now where fabrication has to be used instead of devoted wishbone castings like days of old.

Structurally, the two post and wishbone designs fight the inherent rocking forces of a C-frame design. Every time the hammer head is lifted the C-frame wants to tilt forward, and then tilt backward as the hammer head comes down. The two posts symmetrically share the loads.

[Ford8nman]

I just read through this thread, and wow there is a ton of info here. I happened to notice that 4 or 5 of the people in this one thread are banned? It says that above their picture. What's up with that? I guess we won't see pictures of harrismetalsmith's new steam hammer running?

[Dillon Sculpture]

Those are two of my favorite hammer pics Phil, the photography is amazing! I too am disappointed that Matt's hammer won't make this thread...

 

Forging an anvil with Bill Brown.

[Ric Furrer]

Hello All,

Does anyone have the catalog for the Niles Bement Pond company? I'm curious about what they made and the steam hammers in particular.

Ric

[forgemaster]

For those of us that are power hammer, massey hammer nut/weirdos I have taken some footage that you all may wet your pants over.

2 ton massey clear space, (biggest clear space Massey made)

When you have someone say "oh so and so has the biggest powerhammer made", you can say," was it as big as this"

Be warned there is a rude word uttered in the video, (was not my doing) if you are to watch this around sensitive ears I'd turn the sound off.  Its not really obvious but still.  (mods if you can edit it out in here (IFI) feel free)

[AndrewOC]

Ah memories,

A.

[forgemaster]

Yours was only a baby Androo, a mere 30cwt,