ciladog Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Some members on IFI tell us they can identify what tool steel or alloy they have by spark testing. I say that is just bunk with a capital B.Historically smiths would determine that there was carbon present in iron and spark testing just told them about a relative content.So if you are one of those IFI members that think he or she can tell me what an alloy is with a spark test, you post here and I will give you the challenge. I will send you 5 alloy steels for your testing and we will see how well you fair. No spectrometers allowed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 No but it can be handy to differentiate stuff you know something about---example: lets say I mix up my precision ground D2 and 1095 barstock. A quick hit on the grinder will sure tell me which is which! Now if I pick up random alloys I would *NOT* want to swear that "this one is this specific alloy and that one is another specific alloy". I've always wanted to make up a simple 3 piece billet of 3 different steels and grind it smooth and give it to a MatSci professor to use in their lab class as a "gotcha".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I'll pass...I can spot HCT medium carbon or A36 pretty good but alloys just baffle me... :blink: ..... I've got a pal that works at a scrap yard and he has access to a spectrometer if I really want to nail it....... B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 ROTFLMMFAO we agree Thomas Did that In Knoxville Tn Engeneer Depo they worked on it for a year then gave up ! I gave them a Video of what I did . Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Great; I may wander over to the University next door and talk with their MatSci metals Prof. Did you do a 2 piece 3 piece or more? Hmm a twist might make things even more interesting if then flattened and "bar stocked" With low numbers of layers and welds might even be able to get a carbon differentiation per layer for hardness testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I show the spark test to students, but only WI, A36, medium carbon, high carbon, and gray cast iron. I tell them that the alloy spark showers are tough to read. I give a quick example of HSS to show how different a high alloy spark can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I have to agree. I can tell between mild steel, higher carbon steels and cast iron. but then there are alloys that look like cast iron. I have done some grinding on some high manganese steels that you would swear were cast iron by the sparks. If I needed to get something tested, there is a small foundry about 45minutes away that has a $500 000 machine that tests the chemistry of metals. It has it's own climate controlled room. A bottle of vodka will get a test done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 If I needed to get something tested, there is a small foundry about 45minutes away that has a $500 000 machine that tests the chemistry of metals. It has it's own climate controlled room. A bottle of vodka will get a test done. Hey, bring that bottle of vodka here and I will tell you what you have. I will probably be wrong but I don't think we will care after that bottle of vodka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Hi ciladog. I don't really agree with your announcement. Rather than take your 5 samples and try to test them, I will propose a more helpful and instructive experiment. Spark a piece of A-2, D-2, 1095, 4140, and mild steel. If you cannot tell the difference between them, I may be able to help. The first two of these have extremely characteristic sparks. Perhaps you caught on when Thomas mentioned D-2. There is so much Cr in this that it really affects the spark. Note that I did not mention anything about L-6 or 5160. There are those that would say you are blind if you cannot tell these at first sight, but I need my standard coupons (and maybe a good pair of glasses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I have Hi ciladog. I don't really agree with your announcement. Rather than take your 5 samples and try to test them, I will propose a more helpful and instructive experiment. Spark a piece of A-2, D-2, 1095, 4140, and mild steel. If you cannot tell the difference between them, I may be able to help. The first two of these have extremely characteristic sparks. Perhaps you caught on when Thomas mentioned D-2. There is so much Cr in this that it really affects the spark. Note that I did not mention anything about L-6 or 5160. There are those that would say you are blind if you cannot tell these at first sight, but I need my standard coupons (and maybe a good pair of glasses). I have a better idea, You keep your A-2, D-2, etc.... coupons and let ciladog send you his. Then see if you can tell what his are. You can not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 maybe if the test coupon was R-2, D-2 you would have a chance. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 Hi ciladog. I don't really agree with your announcement. Rather than take your 5 samples and try to test them, I will propose a more helpful and instructive experiment. Spark a piece of A-2, D-2, 1095, 4140, and mild steel. If you cannot tell the difference between them, I may be able to help. The first two of these have extremely characteristic sparks. Perhaps you caught on when Thomas mentioned D-2. There is so much Cr in this that it really affects the spark. Note that I did not mention anything about L-6 or 5160. There are those that would say you are blind if you cannot tell these at first sight, but I need my standard coupons (and maybe a good pair of glasses). If I have 5 known alloys in my hand and I spark test them, I have no doubt that by approximation and the point analysis of each, and I may be able to assess which is which. But given an unknown sample I have no chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Thomas that has been a few many years ago when I did that now days the technological advancement of Machines would figure it out in mear hours or even minuts . They make a powder out of it and can tell you what you ate last month . ;) Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Some members on IFI tell us they can identify what tool steel or alloy they have by spark testing.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Straw man; yes. Because the original position is unsupportable (no one can identify an alloy with certainty using a spark test) and so my challange can not be achieved. There are many ways to make a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 There are many ways to make a point.Some of which are more clear than others. What exactly ARE you trying to say here? That Thomas Powers speaks truly and usefully in post #2 of this thread? If so, then I'll agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Some of which are more clear than others. What exactly ARE you trying to say here? That Thomas Powers speaks truly and usefully in post #2 of this thread? If so, then I'll agree with you. What Thomas wrote is true and I can agree with it. Spark testing is a good way to itentify samples if you already know what you have in your hand. Provided there is enough difference between samples. Approximation works in spark testing. I dentification of unknows does not. And since Thomas posted after the initial post it was not my point to prove him correct or incorrect. My intention was to say that it is not possible to identify unknow samples of alloy with a spark test as some claim they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I've never known anyone to make such a claim. Guess you know more about that than I do, so I'll bow to your superior experience in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 I've never known anyone to make such a claim. Guess you know more about that than I do, so I'll bow to your superior experience in the matter. I wonder about your alter-ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 "it is not possible to identify unknown samples of alloy with a spark test" Well excluding spark spectroscopy.....it's a fairly good test for identifying alloys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsuwa Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Perhaps not identify the exact alloy but at least you can get an idea of the type of alloy. With old lathe bits, drill bits saw blades, it is obvious the difference between high speed steel and the older high carbon tool steel ones. With an old rusty piece of metal from the dump,is it mild steel or wrought iron? I can tell that much any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarry Dog Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 I can't say as I've ever heard someone being able to name a specific alloy by spark, and I have to agree with you that anyone that says they can was making a boast that they could not back up. I have however known people with very reliable guidelines on making an educated guess of what kind of metal they are spark testing. I have a feeling that you are misinterpreting someone else's statement. It's either that, or they were most likely mistaken in their wording, no matter how much they affirmed that they were using the right word. I like to call this a "That's what I said,""No this is what you said," moment, and I've actually had video to prove it to them (or have it proven that I said something stupid) on occasion. For instance, I don't think I know anyone that could tell you the difference between 2 types of straight steel (just carbon) that are only separated by 5 or 10 points, or 2 closely related types of nonmagnetic stainless. Obviously, if you've never looking into a sparking specific type of metal, like aluminum, you won't know how it sparks, but if you try to, you will definitely know it sure ain't steel. If, however, you've done some research though, you can easily identify the general composition as magnesium, cast iron, high manganese, ballpark of straight steel, HSS, titanium, etc. A perfect example of what I have heard from several people who've been around awhile is what the guy in this video shows. The answers are here. As a final thought, it seems that with this post you're playing a game of "prove me wrong." I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I'd much rather see a cool find, a bit of actual advice, a personal accomplishment, or hear a pertinent question, than watch a contest of "Who's got the bigger ball peen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 lets not worry too much about it, Active smiths know what is what, no reason to loose any sleep over it. edited by admin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Emig Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Hey there, can someone clarify the "active smiths know what is what" statement-I am not sure what it refers to. I am an active smith (a decade of doing this for a living), and I agree with Ciladog-I can't do it, and I have a friend who is a ABS certified Master who said he couldn't/wouldn't do it either. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Mark I may have taken Steve's post a bit differently.i think I may fit into the active smiths group...ok may not be as active and in past days...I cannot do a reliable spark..Always thought if I spent a ton of time comparing odd pieces with known samples i could maybe sort it out...However I can spend that time doing things I know I am good at. And one thing for sure. i don't use a lot of unknown steel..That seems to me anyway the steel source for folks new to smithing..and for sure they cannot research a bit or look at a utube video and tell a lot by sparks that will really get them on the way. So to me that is what is what on spark testing....... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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