Jump to content
I Forge Iron

Hardie Tools discussion


Recommended Posts

Original Post

yesteryearforge
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 02:43 pm
Wanted hot cut hardy or hardies with 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 inch square shanks
---------------------

Ed Thomas
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 04:54 pm
Yesteryear: They don't take too long to make, especially if you have a power hammer. Will you be needing other hardie tools for these anvils also? It might be worth the time to make them yourself.

That 1.5" hole is pretty big. For a 400# anvil or so?

One reason I prefer to make my own hardy tools is that I can make them exactly as I want, not as someone else thinks I want. The other, and better, reason is that the hardy shank can be made to fit your anvil better than a generic size.
------------------


Glenn
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 06:39 pm
See if you can find some 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" sq tubing, and some 1/4 x 4" flatbar (think leaf spring, or cut pieces from 1/4" plate). Precut the flatbar to 4x4 and the tubing to hardie post length. You now have stock for making a BUNCH of anvil tools.

If you have a forge and a welder, a custom made anvil tool is rather easy to make.
--------------------------------------------------

Ed Thomas
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 07:21 pm
Glen,

I've made hardie tools that way, and REALLY don't like them. Sort of like trying to hit with a hollow hammer or something.

I'm sure I have over a dozen hardy tools all forged more or less the same way. Everything else just disappeared as inadequate over time.

Just like you wouldn't ordinarily make a hollow-handled chisel, I think the mass of the hardie tool is important.

I have the benefit of a power hammer normally, but as I've said before, a demo of making a hardie only took about 1.5 hrs, and that was stopping to show lots of things, draw things, answer questions and so on. It probably only takes me about 30 minutes to make a hardy without so much help.

And then I have a life-time tool that is custom fitted to that anvil and behaves like an integral part of the anvil, rather than like a wheel with all the lug nuts loose.
--------------------------------

Ed Thomas
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 07:25 pm
oops. Embarassed

By "the same way", I meant solid forged from tool steel, usually a truck axle.
----------------------------------

HWooldridge
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 08:36 pm
The weight of a solid tool vs a hollow stem is noticeable but not always objectionable. In addition, if you need to put a tool in for a while - i.e., something you may use repeatedly to make 50 of something before changing to another bottom tool, you can weld a nut into the shank and bolt it to the anvil from the bottom. Makes a really solid combination of anvil and tool. I also saw one smith put a little hook on the bottom of each tool and use a spring hooked to the anvil block to keep it firmly in the hardy. Lots of ways to skin a cat. Very Happy

-----------------------------------

T-Gold
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 08:40 pm
I like that spring idea. I have seen some tools with a slot cut/punched in the shank and a wedge in it to hold it against the heel. I think I may do the spring.
------------------------------------

Glenn
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 10:06 pm
CAUTION
Do not use the face if the anvil with an anvil tool in the hardie hole. If you hit the anvil tool with your knuckles, hand, arm, etc while holding the hammer, you can be injured. If the hot cut cuts steel it can also cut a finger.

I should explain that the 4x4 plate and piece of 1-1/2" sq tubing was the bottom part of the anvil tool. The top part could be anything you desire.

I have used both solid and hollow hardie posts as well as those that can be secured with nuts, springs, levers, and wedges. Those locked to the anvil don't wiggle, as opposed to those loose in the hole and resting on the anvil. But once the hammer hits, the plate is against the anvil either way.
The top part of the anvil tool (the working part) has always been solid.

Ed, Hollis, etc, is there a mechanical or impact advantage between locking an anvil tool into the hardie hole and having it loose in the anvil face with a well fitting hardie post when it comes to use? Loose will twist a bit, I understand that, but I am asking about preformance of the tool and the possible stress on the anvil.
--------------------------------------------------

Daryl
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2005 12:55 am
As for making an absolutely wicked cut-off hardie, here's what you do.

I see you live in Virginia, go find an agricultural implement dealer, particularly one that sells and repairs forage harvesters. The shaft for the pto on some models is made of 1.25" x 1.5" material, some models have even larger than that. You can tell the extra hard ones as they have evidence of ceramic powder applied to the edges for about 1/4". I have never taken the time to find out what it actually is, except that it only needs a light hardening (after cooling slightly below the transformation temperature) and a light temper (straw to yellow/brown). Trying to cut it with a bandsaw (and good blades) is impossible without fully annealing it. Forging is done in a narrow temperature range (from yellow - not lemon to orange/yellow) and it is tough to move. Sad
Another material to use would be the pinion gear from an Eaton differential from a highway truck. Clean up the material by cutting off some of the excess with a torch before forging.
If either of these materials can handle 500+ horsepower, it should be good enough for us smithies. Very Happy

As for the anvil.... hey guys, myself and many others 'up here' point our anvil such that the hardie hole is on the opposite side of our striking hand. While this may seem backwards, remember most anvils of the south German pattern have the hardie hole on the left, with the pre-anvil on the far side of the face. I can cut something off with my cut-off hardie and move to the center of the face and never worry about slicing my knuckles on the hardie. While it was the way I was taught and I am used to it, it does make sense to me. Smile Wink
----------------------------

yesteryearforge
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2005 04:10 pm
Have made them before and might make these but was hoping to get lucky / it happens from time to time
These are for a 400 lb and a 600 lb anvil
Have smaller hardies but dont like to use sleeves and such.

-----------------------------

Ed Thomas
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2005 05:41 pm
yesteryearforge: Sorry for jumping on a soapbox when all you asked for was if somebody had something for sale. Embarassed I really don't like when people do that to me, and I regret doing that to you. I hope you don't mind that I took the discussion on making tools back to the blacksmithing forum instead.

I never had any luck finding reasonably priced hardie tools for that sized hole. I hope that you do.
-----------------------------

Edit, I have copied the discussion from the tailgating section and placed it in front of Ed's post for continunity.

[This is a continuation of the discussion in the tailgating section by yesteryearforge.] Ed's post starts below




Ed Thomas
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2005 05:39 pm

To be honest, I've never used a locked-in hardie tool so I can't say one way or the other. I know that when I make a hardie tool, it doesn't hop around enough for me to wish I could make it sit still better, so it was never an issue.

The other thing is that a clamped or locked hardie tool might be stiffer or better, but then you have to fool with it more. I can come out of the fire with hot metal and in one motion pick up and settle a hardie tool in place with no appreciable loss of time. As I'm done, or as I need a different tool, the hardie tool comes right out and slips right back on its rack spot.

One thing that occurs to me though....

Almost all my work is done on either a 500# Fisher or a 260# German pattern anvil. So the hardie hole is really deep and supported compared to the typical London pattern 100 - 150 pound anvil, where the hardie hole is hanging out the end like a trash chute on an aircraft carrier.

That means when I make the hardie tools, the walls of the anvil are supporting the shank quite deeply. Like the difference between holding a bolt in your fist or between two fingers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ed,

I work on a 250# Peter Wright or a 100 lb "no-name". The big one is my main "battle anvil" so it's the one that sees daily use and has a 1-1/4 hardy hole. All of my general use hardy tools - like the cut-off - are forged from a solid piece but I make a lot of quickie jigs and often take a piece of 1-1/4 flat and bend it into a "U", then weld it to a plate. At that point, I can weld anything I want to the plate. If the "U" is 4-6 inches long, it will not typically jump around anymore than a solid tool. I do this because 1-1/4 square solid stock is not something I usually keep around the shop.

Jock over on Anvilfire has recommended against a tight fit in the hardy hole due to the possibility of creating a wedge effect and breaking the heel off the anvil. Coincidentally, when I bought my PW, I found it had cracks progressing from both rear corners and the heel was close to falling off. I gouged out the cracks until I had good metal and then rebuilt it back with weld material. The other problem with an overly tight fit is getting the tool stuck.

A professional smith I know uses the lock-in method on one of his anvils (he has two near the forging area). He welds a nut to the bottom of a piece of square tubing and uses a large bolt running thru a big washer to hold the tool in place. This firmly locks the tool and he has no problems with anything moving when he doesn't want it to. After I saw his setup, I made a couple of tools for my small anvil that had a small loop welded to the end of the shank. This anvil sits on a steel stand so another loop welded on a leg allows hooking a spring between tool and stand. I also discovered it's best to make some sort of hand tool to grab the spring quickly or you are fighting it but after a while, I didn't see the need for this much complexity so I abandoned the idea and went back to my other methods.

I post all of this just so a beginner can see there are lots of different ways to get a bottom tool to stay in the anvil. I also have several vises mounted around the forging area so I often put a tool in each vise and leave them there for whatever time is required.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When designing a hardie for your anvil, remember this: the amount of material that sits on the face of the anvil on either side of the hardie shaft should be equal to that of the shaft. eg: shaft is 1", then the total widthat the base is ideally 2". While this is not always possible, take a look at some old cut-off hardies where they were used in too large a hole and are now pretty much turned into a wedge.
The impact should be transferred to the face of the anvil, not into the middle of the body at the hardie hole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daryl,

That's why I like jackhammer stems with an integral collar for cutoffs. All one has to do is forge the shank and the working end.

Other notes on cut-offs: Mine are very thin in section and slightly radiused over the edge long ways, i.e., it's not flat across like a wood chisel but curves and drops off at the edges. In addition, the edge is beveled only on one side so one cuts very close to 90 degrees and the other leaves a wedge end on the cut piece. I can turn the hardy to get whatever desired end I want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hollis: Now you know why I hardly ever go over to anvilfire. :shock:

I have NEVER had a problem with my hardie tools sticking in the direction they have been forged to fit the anvil.

Here is one of the compromises. VERY seldom is a hardy hole perfectly square. You can try to clean it out until it is as close as you can get, but a tool made to fit cleanly in one direction still may not fit when turned 90

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...