Chancellor Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 My 1830's-1850's mousehole anvil's faceplate cracked yesterday. The crack is small and in the middle of the faceplate. It doesn't extend to the edges, and runs about an inch and a half straight across the face, and looks like it slants down shallowly towards the horn. What are the chances the crack propagates? I'm worried that it is near inevitable. I really like this anvil, and paid way too much for it ($700 for a 150lb anvil). What measures can I take to protect against the crack spreading and loosing part of my faceplate? Any way to repair it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Pics would help a lot for sure. A crack can be stopped and even repaired but it's not a trivial project. To stop a crack you need to first know what it's dip and dive is. Dip and dive are the angles and direction the opposing faces of a fracture are laying. Once you know this you can drill a stop hole just beyond both ends of the crack. this provides a controlled point for the crack to break out and being round, drilled holes disperse stress without providing a weak point to initiate further failure. Repairing a crack is something else. First it needs to be stopped. (see above) Next it has to be ground out, then pre-heated and welded, then post heated and normalized. Grind to finish and heat treat back to spec. These are NOT trivial things, heck just drilling hardened high carbon steel is going to cost for bits. I don't know if Cobalt bits are enough but that depends a lot on the alloy and hardness. You might have better luck with a diamond on a Dremel or maybe a tungsten carbide. Unfortunately there's not much chance I can tell you if your crack is going to run without being able to lay hands on it, better yet a magnetic yoke and magnaflux powder. My best advice right now is do a hammer test to determine if the face is delaminating at or around the crack site. If it isn't delaminating I'd do my best to forge somewhere else on the face. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Is it running across the face of the anvil or horn to heel? The old style anvils like Mousehole welded up the faces from multiple sections of High C steel laid side to side and I'd bet they had a slanted edge to make for a better weld. Just guessing I'd say that one of the weld seams has let go. I'd ignore it if you can while waiting for an ABANA affiliate to have an "anvil repair day" and get it welded up properly (I like the Gunter method myself---had a 410# anvil repaired that way after a hard life in the nasty clutches of a copper mine maintenance department...) at the clinic. If it is a weld failure of a section of the face plate you may want to see if the section shows signs of cracking along the edges and if it has any ring left that will indicate it's not delaminating. If it's good I would not be too upset but get it fixed and get on with using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor Posted June 7, 2012 Author Share Posted June 7, 2012 Sorry for not posting pictures, I thought about it right before I posted, but its been storming heavily today and I haven't had a chance to take some. I will tomorrow. Thanks for all the information. I didn't know so much could be done to prevent cracking, and learned a lot about repairing and prevention. Even learned a bit about anvil production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Both Frosty and Thomas have covered the best way to repair the face of the anvil or most any thing else that has a crack in it . I have done it many times working on heavy equipment . even used air ark gouging , Grinding and welding on the armor stuff in the military . will be looking for the photos . Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I had never heard of dip and dive,,it makes sense,,Thanks Frosty I love this place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I had never heard of dip and dive,,it makes sense,,Thanks Frosty I love this place! They're geology terms but I couldn't remember the correct terms for metallurgy. They mean the same thing so I figured why not. I love it here too, where else could I find an audience this big? <grin> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 Interesting, they're working for me.. Let me try just posting links:http://s13.postimage.org/ho2hc8knp/MG_0778.jpghttp://s13.postimage.org/wy2cjfg5x/MG_0779.jpghttp://s13.postimage.org/hgjftgz2t/MG_0782.jpghttp://s13.postimage.org/ildhyuljp/MG_0784.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Well it's cracked alright! Ok seriously! I would try grinding the entire face down past all those marks. It's going to be impossible to forge anything smooth on that face. If you are lucky maybe the crack is just on the surface and you could grind past it. Either way you need to smooth that face up. So I'd say it's worth the shot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 Are the faces of mousehole anvils thick enough to be able to do that without worrying about going too thin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigcity Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 lol that looks like my anvil face same kinda of crack as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Not sure! You probably don't have any dents over 1/8 inch deep. As long as it hasn't been ground a zillion times already you should be fine. Can you see the line where the face plate is welded to the base? How thick is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 bigcity, yours was the mousehole, right? Fiery, thanks for the advice. I'll try looking up how to do it proper-like. From what I hear, a flapper-disk is the right way to do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I wouldn't sorry about it too much. It looks like a flaw in the steel face that may have been there since it was new. I would work around it as much as you can but don't make a big deal out of it. It should last another 170 years unless you are banging cold steel with sledge hammers. Use it and enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 bigcity, yours was the mousehole, right? Fiery, thanks for the advice. I'll try looking up how to do it proper-like. From what I hear, a flapper-disk is the right way to do it? Flapper aok, Keep it flat on the face not up at angle,,,,,36 grit then 60-80, then 120G. Imo anvil faces should be as smooth as your hammers.....If your hammers look like that face then don't bother...... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigcity Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 ya my anvil is a mousehole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I used a grinder with a regular ginding wheel to do the bulk of the removing. Mass keeps the material cool, but don't stay in one place. Move around the entire face as evenly as possible to keep it as smooth and flat as possible. Once the marks are removed, switch to the sanding disk of a finer grit and once again, move evenly around the entire face as flat as possible. I did this on my big Fisher and my small Trenton with much success! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 MP, can you get a good side profile photo of the anvil where the lil chunk is missing next to the crack in the last photo so I can see the face plate too ? Doing a Simple Grind with a 8 or 9 inch grinding wheel (Regular Wheel) first held flat on the surface will "Mill" the top down and remove most all the dimples leaving you with a anvil face that looks like it has been to the milling shop . Do not angle the wheel at all keep it flat at all times . and moving the full face of the anvil . Hang on to the grinder it will cut ! Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Yes that chip on the side seems to show the thickness left of the face. Is the face soft? It's possible that that anvil's been through a fire and is annealed and might be rehardenable. I'd look the face over carefully and see if moderate cleanup could leave at least one section smooth and not worry about getting it all down to clean at the expense of total face thickness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusb Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I am not a fan of grinding, but that face looks like it needs some attention. I agree with some others, only knock down the shallow stuff, once its off its heck to put it back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 Here are some pictures. Also, there is a hollow near the front, and towards the rear there is a high spot that runs down the centerline. Thanks for all the advice, sorry it has taken me so long to get back with more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 MP, As I look at the two photos I see from the chip to the horn it is cracked (a hair line one) also under the horn shows it is cracked. Now as for the top a flat grind with proper protective gear a 8 or 9 inch grinder is what I use for this laying the grinding wheel flat on the surface and make the first pass this will reveal the high spots and they can be removed by the same grinding method until the top is smooth. The finish will be a smooth mill style. The crack to the right in the photo can be ground out and welded to fix it as the same for the crack to the bottom of the horn. I still recommend a 3/8’s T11 plat to the top of the anvil once you have the grinding done to flatten it the edges of the plate need to be beveled so when you weld it to the top it has proper penetration and bonding. In addition, a few holes drilled into the plate ¾ inch and plug welded to the surface to keep it solid. The finished project would make your anvil useable for many years to come and even so, it could be passed down to the kids or an apprentice if you chose to do so, and they will have it for years to come. Good luck in the repairs be safe in doing them, if I can offer you any other information about the repair please feel free to ask. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotset Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 you could just flapwheel one place to give you a finishing spot for work you want unblemished and carry on using it for another hundred years or so all the scars are like a fingerprint an imprint of history to flat that would in my humble opinion be criminal all the lumps and bumps peakes and valleys are of great use to a metal shaper ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Thanks for the Idea. I learned the downside of a crown on the centerline yesterday, when trying to punch and drift a hammer eye. Kept rolling off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 If you have a large enough grinder you can get cup wheels for them.I would get the bult ground like mentioned above and then use a cup wheel to finish it, never stopping and always moving. the cup wheel is sometimes easier to keep flat as it cuts in the shape of a ring and raises the grinder slightly off the work. I seldom use them unless I am trying to get something flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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