fluidsteel Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 So, As a plumber I get a good bit of copper scrap every year. I use some of the thicker stuff for guards on my knives, but 99% goes to the scrapper to fund my tool budget. That being said, has anyone here successfully forge welded copper pipe together to make thicker pieces for guards, etc? I have a blown gas forge with a type K thermocouple. I can run it without too much work at most temps up to 2,400 degrees+ Should I try it like I'm making Mokume but with only copper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I say try it and educate the rest of us I have no idea but would like to know. I took my personal forge to one of our conferences a few years ago and one of the demonstrators melted a copper rod in it by mistake and I ended up replacing the refractory so I could forge weld in it again because the copper contaminated it beyond steel forge welding use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Why not just cast it? You can do simple ingots/shapes in soft firebrick. Just remember to deoxidize the melt. (and yes you should be able to solid phase weld it like mokume but why deal with the extra fussiness if not for the designs aspect?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I forge welds nicely. keep it clean, don't bother with flux.run rich as an oxidizing atmosphere will stop a weld quickly. If you are doing large flat areas like Damascus it is imperative that you have shiny material and that they are as close fitting as possible, and held together as you heat to keep the air away from the joint. As with mokume a small jig to hold the stack together helps. The layers are still a weak point when you are done,until you really get things moved around. If it where me I would save the trouble and just get some larger dimensional material, unless you were specifically wanting Mokume. there is a learning curve and there will be waste till you get used to it. Or conversely, like Thomas says, why not cast it? It would be much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluidsteel Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 I have plenty of 1/8"-1/4"x2"x2" pieces salvaged from 100# of old fuses for Mokume. I was just thinking ahead and considering a turned copper handle for a future project. I have 100# of scrap copper, and 300# of mixed brass. I get that much or more annually. Since I have a dozen soft firebricks I'll try melting a batch. Thanks guys.Mod note: Typo corrected as smelting is extraction from ores Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I wonder, do you get wages? Or just the scrap copper, about the same, with todays prices for scrap anything, and inflation . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oof Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 i haven't tried pure copper yet, but my understanding is it can be a booger. use a charcoal cover as it will want to absorb o2, and run your furnace rich. copper phosphorous brazing rod will help degas. mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 i haven't tried pure copper yet, but my understanding is it can be a booger. use a charcoal cover as it will want to absorb o2, and run your furnace rich. copper phosphorous brazing rod will help degas. mark it works easily in propane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles McDonald Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Ive never tried with heavier copper, but Ive fused 16-14 gauge copper wire together in sections making braided finger rings. I simply used an acetylene torch and no flux. I had to do it in more than one go at fusing temperature... I say fusing simply because thats the term more often used in working non ferrous metals. Using a torch for what you're doing would be a pain i'd say, but i think you should be able to do it quite easilyin your forge. Ive also done this with brass, bronze, sterling and fine silver and other than silver the copper was the easiest of the bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I say try it and educate the rest of us I have no idea but would like to know. I took my personal forge to one of our conferences a few years ago and one of the demonstrators melted a copper rod in it by mistake and I ended up replacing the refractory so I could forge weld in it again because the copper contaminated it beyond steel forge welding use. I make and forge Bronze often in my forge. How did your forge get ruined by the copper? Most my work is pattern welding. never had any problem, see the thread http://www.iforgeiro...er-in-a-forge/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Copper doesn't really weld, it fuses together more like fine silver does. I make copper jump rings and no longer solder them together but fuse the end together. You can fuse small sheets of it together like you would in making mokume-gane but I don't think that's exactly the same as forge welding. You'd need to ask James Binnion about that he is the real expert on fusion welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Copper doesn't really weld, it fuses together more like fine silver does. What are you saying is the difference between welding and fusing? I don't see any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Well I guess that I didn't explain that very well but there is a difference between what happens with iron based metals and what happens with noble metals, as far as my limited understanding of it on the atomic level goes it just ain't the same thing. If I be wrong it wouldn't be the first time in my life so please let me know I'm always open to new understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Me too. I was under the assumption all a weld is the melding of two base matrix with each other on a molecular level. I know copper really feels different in welding than steel does, but I think the end result is the same. A billet of Damascus and a billet of Mokume both act like one piece when they are properly made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Me too. I was under the assumption all a weld is the melding of two base matrix with each other on a molecular level. I know copper really feels different in welding than steel does, but I think the end result is the same. A billet of Damascus and a billet of Mokume both act like one piece when they are properly made. As a welder, I too, understood this to be true. I seem to remember my first instructor describing the process in similar terms. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I know the OP is about forge welding but, I believe you can heliarc (TIG) weld most any metal together. Heck, with the right equipment, you can even "weld" plastic together, and no, I don't mean with glue ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I'll have to delve into this further. My friend that makes both pattern welded steel and mokume-gane says no. I wonder who is correct now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbin Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 So I heard from Jerry that there was a conversation about forge welding copper over here. Yes you can forge weld copper, it needs to be kept clean and in a strong reducing atmosphere while heating. It can be tricky as the oxygen in the air will cause the bond to fail if it gets too much exposure. This is why it is easier to make the weld in a mokume type of fixture. Also the more deformation (spreading) of the bonding surface you can get on the first strike the better your chances of a successful bond. It is not an easy weld but having a big power hammer will make it easier. As for welding definitions, forge welding, mokume, pattern welding (damascus) are all solid state welding. TIG, Stick, torch etc are all liquid phase welding. Both types are true welding, but there are metallurgical differences in the crystal structures resulting from the joining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Thanks! So when I'm fusing fine silver and copper rings to make chain and I get that liquid flash what I'm actually doing is liquid phase welding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert MacVeigh Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Does forge "brazing" make any sense for your purposes?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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