SReynolds Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hi folks, Can anybody point me to a tool (header?) I can easily make or purchase to hold round stock? I would like to begin fordging round pins from round stock in 1/4" 5/16 and/or 3/8" for the purpose of hinge pins and or hand made bolts. I have made a nail header (with much assistance) from 1/2 thick stock but is is mild steel and the nails get hung in that as it wears rapidly and requires constant dressing. Commercially made nail headers from high carbon don't seem to wear at all, thus I'd rather buy one of quality carbon steel, rather than make one that wears out rapidly........... I don't have much in the way of carbon steel other than a bit of spring steel. Thanks, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I made my nail header out of a grade 8 bolt. Spring steel is a good choice for making a nail header. blacksmithdepot.com may have what you are looking for to purchase. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yea, I have been there. And unless they are camoflaged somewhere, they don't have pin headers, unless I'm looking for the wrong item. I'm simply guessing it would be similar to a nail header, but then, perhaps not. I had seen one guy (this site?) make a pin header by drilling a hole through a block of billet steel and cutting that in half. It is clamped in the vise jaws and the pin dropped inside that, the head forged, and the block removed from vise, the fresh pin dropped out by opening the two halves. Sound familiar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yes, that has been done by many people. If you cannot saw you can clamp two blocks together with a piece of two of card stock (paper) in between. The drill will want to stay following the card stock so you get even, not quite 1/2 circles on each block (a drill press helps). You then use this in your vise. It has also been mentioned that drilling a clearance fit hole through the block will work, and typically not jam as the pin will shrink when cool and you forge it hot. A fancy onehttp://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/33023-two-sided-rivet-header/ pictures and explanations in this threadhttp://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/2536-how-do-you-make-rivets/ anotherhttp://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/12046-rivets-upsetting-small-rod/ Macbruce explains the block, and there is more information. http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/25926-how-do-you-make-rivets/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yea, I have been there. And unless they are camoflaged somewhere, they don't have pin headers, unless I'm looking for the wrong item. I'm simply guessing it would be similar to a nail header, but then, perhaps not. I had seen one guy (this site?) make a pin header by drilling a hole through a block of billet steel and cutting that in half. It is clamped in the vise jaws and the pin dropped inside that, the head forged, and the block removed from vise, the fresh pin dropped out by opening the two halves. Sound familiar? Have a look through Blacksmiths Tools explained in the Tools section Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
781 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 A Step vise had removeable jaws that had half round holes in each jaw. It also had a moveble stop block below that controled how long the bolt was. As you pounded on the bar stock to make the upset it could not slip down I have a collection of old bolt headers that looked like a nail header but the hole is straight. Not sure how it was used if the stock was captured in a vise with the header above the jaws. These are old tools and look alike and did not come from the same shop so they look commercially produced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Anybody seen these??? The first video results in a slightly bent pin/rivet. I guess that is ok??? MIne do bend so maybe i'm on the right track...to upset the stock first, set in a header, and upset the head....................????? The second video is another method with two halves, held in the vise and clamping the stock to upset head. I suppose I'll make both. Not sure if the two halves need to be carbon steel or not................???? Thanks folks for all the information. I have been studying this!!! Bent rivet/pin formed by a header; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MecQZp0Gz9s Two halves, clamping rivet with a vise;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDRjYu4BZLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Mild steeel is more than adequate to make the split blocks, don't forget the card between the two pieces before you drill the blocks You can also drill more than one size in the block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 the one I use is just like John B has posted. Aluminum angle on the jaws of the vice works well also. When I made mine I drilled the holes and then welded on the spring at that point I sawed the drilled piece in half as long as you holes are lined up the loss of the material will give you a real good fit around the material you are up setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 It helps to chamfer lightly the lengths on the sides of the drilled holes, prevents hanging on like in the second video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 At present, I'm working on the nail header style. It works ok. Made one from 1/2 thick spring steel. I have to upset the stock first. However, the pin/rivet *IS* bent. I don't know what bends it, likely that bit of slop between the hole in header and the O.D. of the steel stock. I don't know........Not badly, but enough to see a very slight bend if you take time to look at it. Would not work properly if one was to use it as a hinge pin, but OK for a rivet. (well......not is a set of tongs) Perhaps the block pinched in the vise would be better to forge a hinge pin. THAT will have to be straight to operate a hinge.......................any sorta bend in a two inch long (hinge) pin would NOT work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 At present, I'm working on the nail header style. It works ok. Made one from 1/2 thick spring steel. I have to upset the stock first. However, the pin/rivet *IS* bent. I don't know what bends it, likely that bit of slop between the hole in header and the O.D. of the steel stock. I don't know........Not badly, but enough to see a very slight bend if you take time to look at it. Would not work properly if one was to use it as a hinge pin, but OK for a rivet. (well......not is a set of tongs) Perhaps the block pinched in the vise would be better to forge a hinge pin. THAT will have to be straight to operate a hinge.......................any sorta bend in a two inch long (hinge) pin would NOT work. IME Hinge pins are usually rivetted over in situ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hinge pins are riveted over in situ? :unsure: What is that? I an only guessing here, but I plan to make a pin with one head, slip it through the two (hinge halves) and then hot forge or cold forge a little bit of head on the bottom, if it is even needed. No? Yes? :mellow: I havn't made any yet, so I have yet to try that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Yes, some hinges need heads on both sides of the pin because they are not used in a vertical orientation so the pin will tend to work itself out over time and use. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 You really need to spend a bunch of hours in the shop and rivet things..cold hot wotever you like. The one thing you need the most here is experience. Wot others can tell youi on here are only a starting point. Most of the time you will encounter problems and learn as you work through them. You will get there but like almost everything in the shop it takes time in the shop to build the mechanical skills needed. Take the header you made. and get a ten foot length of steel the correct size. cut a hand ful of short pieces, maybe a foot long. Head ont end then ut that off and chuck it, do it again, and again until youi can make heads without any thought process getting in your way. It is kind of like driving a car, Once you learn you do not think of all it takes to start and move in any direction and stop when needed. That kind of ability is not a short term thing. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hinge pins are riveted over in situ? :unsure: What is that? I an only guessing here, but I plan to make a pin with one head, slip it through the two (hinge halves) and then hot forge or cold forge a little bit of head on the bottom, if it is even needed. No? Yes? :mellow: I havn't made any yet, so I have yet to try that. If you are going the long way of upsetting the end, you will not easily get a straight pin, unless you add a further forging operation using a top and bottom swage of the correct size. Not so much of a problem with a split gripping tool. Often hinges are forged using a pin in situ (as a mandrel), and this pin is then replaced with a new one at assembly and rivetted in position, both ends This makes the hinge secure and not liable to come apart in use, unless you want to be able to open a locked door or whatever when you have not got the key, then, drive the pin out and the hinge comes apart, allowing access to whatever is on the other side of what the hinge is on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 I made the split gripping tool in which to hold round stock while forging the round head. Just like in the video. It is a one time use tool, however. I'm real unhappy w/ that. I made from mild steel. I had read that for this tool , that would be adequate. But, in operation, the top portion is destroyed when the pin head is forged. This took quite a bit of time to manufacture and was hoping for better results. The pin is nice, but each time I forge a pin, I'll have to grind-off the damaged portion,otherwise the next pin has a bulge under the head, as the holding die meterial at that spot is smashed down and into the hole. I made two different sized holes too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Have you a picture of the tool? And what diameter rivet are you trying to make ? (Shank and head) I suspect you are hammering when the material is too cool, the ones I have from mild steel have stood up well when in use, certainly never had to dress them, even after multiple usage. I don't think case hardening would improve your situation, but it is an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 I be more than happy to take a picture. I have made a number of pins and have to dress it each time.less the underside of the next pin head is distorted. Not the way a pin would be. You really need a flat underside to the head. Without that the pin is gorped i/e. no good in my opinion. This tool just won't do it unless I dress the top each time. I'll photo the pins I made too and post them up here as well. I really like the way in which it makes a pin head. Real fast!! And the pin shank is straight too! The header method, which I'm building now, is going to require upsetting and a lot more steps to make the same pin....................... I have 5/16 and 3/8 pin block made. These should be popular sizes for pins. The header will be of same size, made from spring steel. Thanks! Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Pictures of the pin block. One is 5/16 and another is 3/8 the head size will be slightly larger than the stock. I can make the thicker head or a thinner head. These serve no purpose other than to demonstrate how to make them. I may use some as a hinge pin when I begin to make hinges. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Here is my attempt top make a pin header......didn't work out so well. The problem is welding the handle onto spring steel. That hasn't been working. This time I preheated it and lost the temper (per heat-treating methods) as it turns blue. So I tried to heat treat it and temper, but it split apart. It would be much easier to buy one......... I will now atempt tp make one more less weling a handle on. I'l have to use the holdfast to secure the header to the top of the anvil. Thus it will take longer to mess w/driving the pin from the header, if I have to, but I won't have to worry about all this preheating/postheating etc.etc. Easier to buy them for sure, but I have folk asking me how you'd make a hinge pin and/or rivet, so............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I just use mild steel and quench it in Gunther quench. some times I get some S-7 drops and that works well also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don A Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I have made some of the two-piece tools, but instead of drilling a big block and then cutting it, I took two blocks of equal size and matched them flat to flat; square and even, then clamped it up tight. I then stuck a couple small tack welds on either end, then removed the clamps. I center punched it right in the joint line on the top and then drilled through. After getting any springs or angle pieces attached, you knock the tacks off and your two halves are free. As stated above, ease the edges, because they will be sharp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I have made some of the two-piece tools, but instead of drilling a big block and then cutting it, I took two blocks of equal size and matched them flat to flat; square and even, then clamped it up tight. I then stuck a couple small tack welds on either end, then removed the clamps. I center punched it right in the joint line on the top and then drilled through. After getting any springs or angle pieces attached, you knock the tacks off and your two halves are free. As stated above, ease the edges, because they will be sharp. Does that way grip enough to allow you to forge the head? The cutting in half or using a piece of shim allows the tool to grip the metal bar firmly enough to allow you to forge the head without too much slippage. Or are you making tapered rivets in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 I have made some of the two-piece tools, but instead of drilling a big block and then cutting it, I took two blocks of equal size and matched them flat to flat; square and even, then clamped it up tight. I then stuck a couple small tack welds on either end, then removed the clamps. I center punched it right in the joint line on the top and then drilled through. After getting any springs or angle pieces attached, you knock the tacks off and your two halves are free. As stated above, ease the edges, because they will be sharp. That is exactly what I had done. I also had a piece of card stock between the to halves when I clamped/welded/drilled.THis will not slip. You canhammer down on the stock and forge the head. The problem I found, is that the top of the block is deformed after forging just one rivet/pin head. It's in bad shape. Really takes a beating. I'd have to dress that each time to make/froge a quality pin. If I didn't carte how it looked, I could probably forge many pin heads, but the underside will be beveled as the block has folded down and into that hole. Nobody ever said it would do that................ I'm sorta suprised it does that! The other method by way of a header takes way long as it has to be upset first, then hammered into the header. The pin/rivet will be bent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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