Sand used as a flux?

[ThomasPowers]

You may want to read the earlier posts on this subject.

[Mr Smith]

I have. Was there something I missed?

I know a smith, who has spent many years in the trade. His advice on the subject is that sand is a *better* flux, and that I should throw the borax away.

[ThomasPowers]

I thought we had discussed sand in depth and even mentioned dirt daubers---mentioned in one of the FoxFire books I believe...

I demonstrated billet welding to an 82 year old german smith once (Bad Windsheim open air Museum) who thought I had sold my soul to the devil cause I was welding at such low temps. He used sand and I was using borax. he mainly welded low carbon materials that can stand the extra heat and not high carbon knife steels that do not.

I left him the rest of my little sample box of borax so he could track some down...

Plain 20 muleteam borax seems to do fine on my billets though I have a copy of the steel glue receipe for if I get a hankering to weld up high alloy steels.

For real wrought iron I will use clean sand or crushed glass sometimes.

[Mr Smith]

Thomas, from what I had read, the jury was still out. I *assume* I'm reading the same posts you were.

Some people stated that they had seen sand used to no avail, some were stating that it depends on the type of metal used, et cetera.

What I was stating was that I had seen sand used, and it works.

Sand. Plain sand. Not a "mud-daubers'" nest. Not crushed glass. On all types of steel.

That's my contribution. In future, I'll pm you and ask if it's okay to post anything before I do so.

[ThomasPowers]

I'm just not good with accepting blanket statements. The devil is in the details!

Sand on high alloy steel welds with lots of Cr, Ni and 1.5%C? I'm very impressed!

Was this billet welding or just joining two parts?

Though I do freely admit that forge welds of almost anything can be done fluxless under the right conditions...shoot they do them at ambient temperature about a mile over from my office. (Explosive welding facility and yes an explosive weld is more than a mechanical weld it really is solid phase welding.)

No need to ask permission; jump right in if you have new data; please post as many of the details as you can. I'd like to replicate welding stainless steel using only sand!

[Mr Smith]

Whatever, Thomas.

Once again, I have tried to provide something of value to the Iforgeiron community, and you have decided to ride rough-shod all over it.

I don't understand what the problem is.. I posted something related to blacksmithing, in a blacksmithing thread, on a blacksmithing forum.

Honestly, Thomas, If you can't accept another person's opinion, perhaps the internet isn't for you?

I apologise to the other people following this thread; I have added what I felt necessary - I won't waste any more of your time - Thomas seems to be more than capable of fielding all of your questions.

Get it hot, and hit it hard

Mr Smith

[darrync]

as a new comer to this site i'm a little disapointed to see the breakdown and the tit-for-tat between Mr. Smith and Thomas. We all have different opinions and have all seen and heard about different things so please guys can we keep the thread about welding. I would like to try both Borax and sand to see how they effect the steels. Granted a will be starting with mild steels and then later with tool steels. Is it better to use borax for both?

[Glenn]

Go to the top of the forum page and click on user cp
click on edit profile
go to the bottom of the page, enter your location, and save.

We would like to know where in the world you are located.

[ThomasPowers]

DarryNC, borax started to be used in forge welding when the change over from using real wrought iron to using mild steel came in---the last half of the 19th century after the Bessemer converter was commercialized. "Practical Blacksmithing", Richardson; a collection of articles from 1889, 1890 and 1891, IIRC, discusses the change and the need for a different flux than the old ones.

High alloy tool steels will probably need a more aggressive flux than plain borax, a bit of fluorspar often being added---it's more toxic in it's fumes so beware!

Plain high carbon steels weld quite well with borax.

Some "mild steels" today seem to need a bit more help, which I ascribe to more elements in them than I would like from recycling steel.

Have you read "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith and The Pattern Welded Blade" by James Hrisoulas? He covers fluxes and welding of tool steels in them very well.

[Steve Sells]

Just to jump on the bandwagon, I use 20 mule team out of the box. It works very well on most everything from Wrought Iron to the tool steels I use. I lately started adding a small amount of Boric Acid to the Borax, because I started playing with Meteorites, and the high nickel needed a little help.

What I find amusing is comments from people that, from my talking to them in other contexts, I know have never welded, but seem to think they know more about how to do many things better than those of us that do those things regularly. Its a sad fact of the Internet I am afraid, as it makes knowing the real information hard to discern. But as for the matter at hand if I was only allowed one flux, it would be Borax, as its cheap, safe, and it works well for most welds. (look what is used as a flux coating on some welding rods for example)

enough of my ranting, I return you to your regularly scheduled programs.

[ThomasPowers]

I did my first pattern welded billt back in 1983 with Jim Crowel as my instructor---he's taught at the ABS school later on IIRC; been welding ever since.

I generally use 20 mule team right as it comes out of the box too; but recently as I have switched away from the great coal I was using in OH I've added boric acid to my flux as well, (Roach Prufe is 98% boric acid and you can buy a pound of it for about the same cost as an ounce of boric acid at the pharmacy...

[Finnr]

With the nasty coal I've been getting lately I also had to go to adding boric acid. Thanks for the tip on Roach Prufe!!! Thomas.
Finnr

[trattoclip]

Hello !
Nice to meet you.

I have found this document on : alt.crafts.blacksmithing newsgroup

"recommended flux for mild steel is clean sand and borax. mixed 4
parts sand and 1 part borax..
Ordinary borax contains water, when this is heated, bubbles and is
cooled it becomes borax glass. Pulverize this and mix 4 parts of this
to 1 part sal ammoniac (ammonium chloride). This mix is good for
carbon steels..
High carbon steel flux is 50% anhydrous borax, 25% boric acid and
25%silica sand.
Where would I get these?? Let your fingers walk.. Call chemical supply
houses.."

Do you confirm this method ?

Many thanks

[John B]

One problem I find when people discuss using sand as a flux is there are many types of sand, problems also with inclusions, where it was stored etc

One very well experienced blacksmith I know swears by rock, crushed up obtained from a range of local hills near to his smithy

Borax has been used for many many years, and is relatively easily available and works well.

So try different compounds, and ff it works for you, then go with it.

[Alan B]

I attended a hammer in last June and watched Steve King use sand as flux on a damascus billet. It welded fine and didn't seem to affect the pattern so I know it's possible. Trattoclip, I'm not sure why you would use silica sand, we mix silica sand with brick cement for chimney flews and such because it won't melt and break down the mortar. It is available at Lowe's and other home improvement stores with the cement products.

[mark stephen]

Silica sand was used as a flux when everyone was forge welding true wrought iron and not todays mild steel.The forge welding temps are higher for wrought and the silica would act as borax does with todays mild steels and high carbon steels.

[Jan]

Hi everyone,
there is yet ANOTHER way;when we were completely broken(i mean one day before bankrupcy),we were using broken glass from beer bottles...it worked.

[blksmth]

The Superior Flux & Mfg. Co. that makes "Anti-Borax" E - Z Weld has this statements on their E-Z Welding Flux can: "Contains silica powder - avoid breathing dust". It contains iron filings/powder. The same company makes Crescent Welding Flux. A can of that says: "Crescent contains no metal filings. Thus is easier cleaning....". These are probably the most popular commercial fluxes used by blacksmths (opinion).

[Opinel]

The rice straw ash which was previously mentioned was not used for flux, but to raise the carbon content of the "harder" steel on the outside of the Japanese metal "sandwich" the swords are made from, as the forging and hammering tended to lower the overall carbon content of the steel.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome aboard Opinel, have you read this yet?  READ THIS FIRST   It will help getting the best out of the forum.

[ThomasPowers]

Ash doesn't contain carbon; what is the mechanism?

[Ric Furrer]

On 1/21/2020 at 1:09 PM, ThomasPowers said:

Ash doesn't contain carbon; what is the mechanism?

No mechanism Thomas...the rice ash has silica which melts and acts as high temp flux. The common decrab from forging is what draws down the carbon in the Japanese work. Some starting carbon levels are very high in tamahagane and after folding it drops to the useful levels of about 70 points....but you knew that. Ric

[ThomasPowers]

Yes; I also differentiate between "Keeping"  and "Raising" as so many people have the mistaken idea that all the forging and welding *increases* the carbon content rather than homogenizing and lowering it.

[David R.]

I use borax most of the time. I had always heard about the mud dauber nest flux. Doing historical blacksmith demonstrations I decided to try it. Works pretty good. 

[ThomasPowers]

Sand or powdered glass is a great flux for real wrought iron work. It mimics the ferrous silicates in the real wrought iron.  It is rather a hot flux for modern steels and of course is harder to remove when it cools down as unlike borax, boiling it in water doesn't dissolve it.