Inexperianced anvil question.

[Matthew Paul]

I've been hammering on steel for a year or so now, but never owned a true "anvil" I have used autobody dollys spiked into a stump, stump anvils, a 3" diameter slug of mild steel, RR track, and finally a 55lb china cast "anvil" mounted on top of a vertical 70# section of rail track. It works Ok I suppose. It was a gift from my father. But, I wouldn't really know what "ok" is, as I've never used a real anvil.

I do mostly knife making, some tool making(I would like to start doing more of this), and am looking to have a try at making small tomahawks hammers and hatchets.

My question is, would a smaller, 40-60lb steel anvil move metal noticeably better than the cast one that I am using now? I have looked for ~100# anvils locally and the prices are unreal, and the shape of them are marginal at best. I can not afford a new larger anvil ether.

I've been looking at the smaller Austrian from Old World Anvils. Basicly what I'm getting at is -- the 44lb anvil from oldworld is the most that I can afford. Do you think that it would be wise to purchase this, or use what I have for a year or so until I can afford something larger.

I apologize if this seems to be an ignorant question, but I really don't have much experience.

Also, I can not do too heavy of work, and probably won't be able to for a long while. Reason being: I almost lost my left hand to an axe 3 months ago.....

Thank you for your patience and knowledge in advance.

-Matt

[pkrankow]

If you can securely fasten the smaller anvil, then it will perform well. There are people who believe a very well mounted 30# anvil can outperform an anvil much bigger. Tripods that can be staked or bolted to the ground are proven very effective, as are stumps or timbers buried in the earth. The concept is to have the mass of the planet Earth backing up your anvil.

Where on the planet are you, IFI is represented around the world. There maybe someone close by who can help.

Phil

[Matthew Paul]

I should put my location on here. I'm located in Orange County NY.

So I could use the 70# section of rail as the center post like I am now. But mount the better anvil on it and weld up a tripod supporting the post -- I would have a very sturdy 70+ lbs under the smaller steel anvil and it will perform like a much larger steel anvil and much better than the cast iron "anvil" that I have now?

I'll upload a picture of my current setup if that will help any.

And thank you for your help, Phil.

[pkrankow]

I would strap/bolt the anvil to the tripod so as not to weld on the anvil itself, but I think you are thinking along good lines.

NY is a region that should be well saturated with anvils. Due to your injury the smaller one may be better, but if you talk to EVERYBODY about wanting an anvil to use, you may get lucky and get something more suitable.

Here are some other ideas.



Also a simple block of steel, or an old forklift tine (ask at a repair place for a scrap tine, they probably will require it cut before it leaves) are other suitable anvils. Remember too that an anvil is simply a solid block of material, and looked nothing like the "London pattern" anvils we are used to for centuries.

Phil

[Matthew Paul]

Here is what I have put together. This is the most "advanced" setup that I have so far.... I'm wondering if it's worth the money, and actually a worth upgrade to the 44lb anvil from old world anvils for this setup, or if I should save my coins for something else. This stand is fairly sturdy and movement is minimal. The 4x4s are lag bolted together through the 2x4s, and the rail section has a base and some bracing welded on. The stand is attached to the base with 8 long screws, which will be replaced with lag bolts, I just didn't have any left. The anvil is ratchet strapped to the upright. I plan on welding some 1/4" plate to the top so that I can actually bolt the anvil down - If I keep this setup, and it is worth it. It seemed like the 12" section of rail I have spiked into a small stump moves material almost as well as this one. is that becasue it is cast iron?

Here it is, many hours spent putting together this thing believe it or not...

[Tom Allyn]

Your China anvil, with the RR track under it, should do pretty well - short term - for a few years. The anvil won't hold up over the long run. It's mounted about as well as it can be now.

Living in the Northeast, I think you would be very likely to find some decent anvils at any local blacksmithing association or group. Look up your local chapter. Go to a few meetings and start asking around. If they hold conferences then go to those (your best bet). In the mean time work with what you have. Many work on far worse than that.

[pkrankow]

Keep your eye on Craigslist. Talk to your friends and family and neighbors and preacher, and whoever you meet about this hobby and that you are looking to get a bigger anvil. Use what you have for a while. That looks to be a good setup, but replace the nylon strap. Does it rock any?

http://www.oldworldanvils.com/anvils/kanka.html

Is this what you were talking about, a 44# anvil? That same $350 in a used anvil should get you about 150# if you look, and are patient, possibly a whole lot more. (I paid $200 for a 168# Trenton with beat up edges.) There is something nice about being the first to use a tool, but the price of good used anvils is fairly low compared to new.

Things to look for in a used anvil is integrity (intact face, no separation or cracks) edge condition (clean slightly rounded edges) no signs of obvious abuse (welding, cutting, etc)

Don't worry about some sway, it is considered helpful by most people and makes straightening easier. A mushroomed horn tip is probably deliberate after someone injured themselves on a sharp horn, and fixable if needed.

Missing pieces like horns or heels should drop the price a lot, but don't destroy the anvil.

Phil

[fluidsteel]

Yup I'd keep looking too. I got my 300# Fisher for $360, my 119# Kohlswa for $150, and a really old English pattern 55# for $140

All three were from an anvil poor area.

My method was this. I used SearchTempest and searched 4-5 times a day. The Fisher was added to Craig'slist at 9:40PM and I found it at 10:00PM. I was at his house at 8AM an hour ahead of another guy..... I checked, and it was removed by 9AM....
99% of the public never knew a 300# Fisher was ever for sale in my area.
It was the same thing with the Kohlswa. It went on at 8AM. I was at his house on my first "break" at 8:30AM....

[ThomasPowers]

I would suggest planning for the long term. If you expect your hand to improve over time---several years is generally required and DO THE PT!---then I would not tie up a lot of money in a new light anvil.

Take a look at some of the "knifemaking Anvils" being used on the web that are just a section of 4" square stock mounted vertically. Or just hunt around until you can find a big hunk of steel. A nice 6" dia by 6" long piece of shafting will do well as a light anvil and bought out of the scrap stream should be cheap!

Moving from cast iron to steel will be a definite improvement and the money saved can go toward a good postvise---very needed for knifemaking IMNSHO! Then use what you have to start saving for the "big" anvil so when one crosses your path cheap you can jump on it!

Note that I have taught blacksmithing to people with much more severe problems than having only 1 good hand and even know of a one handed knifemaker so you will be in good company!

[Rich Hale]

Steels commonly forged into blades are a lot harder to forge than mild steel used for decorative things etc. The little anvil you have now is like an anchor to learning. It is simply not wot you need now or later. Now is not the time to change anvils to one you will likely have to change again later. Translated that means you may want to get at least a 150 pound well made anvil whenever you can. You will be amazed at the difference. Stewart know anvils. Go visit him and learn about them and see wot your money will buy or how much more you will need to get together A tree stump cut to the right height with a good anvil mounted on it will help you as you learn. I do most of my work on a 105 pound and when I do heavier work I have a 177. They are amazing. Some folks seem to think anvils have powers or magic in them..they do not they are a shop tool. And like most tools the better they are the better they are in your shop.

[Drewed]

I do all my work on a 156lb trenton anvil. Ok, that is not entirely true, I also have a 150lb Japan cast beater POS That i use because I haven't reformed my hardies to fit the trenton yet. I also do most of the hot cutting on the Japan one because I don't care if I cut to deep and chew up the face ( more than it is.)

For blade work you want smooth over big. I'd be tempted to try forging on the end of the rail track minus the cast anvil. Steel really does move metal better than cast. However, work with what you got!

A few angle brackets and some anchors into the floor and that shouldn't be moving at all. OR is you want it portable look for a stump to mount it on, or fill a big bucket with sand / concrete. True working anvil mass is the anvil + the mount.

[Matthew Paul]

Thank you for the information everyone.

It seems like I should just make the top plate for the stand and use that for now, until I find a nice 100+ lb anvil.

Phil: It's sturdy. The anvil moves a little on the post if I really beat on it, But i'm going to fix that. -- Yes that's the anvil that I was talking about, also.
Drewed: I have used it like that, But I like the wider face of the anvil. I do have another 12" section of rail that I do use occasionally also.
Thomas, Rich, Tom, Fluid: Thank you for the information sir.
Stewart, I'm only 2 hours or so from you. We should see if we can meet up one day.

[Old N Rusty]

An axedent in the left hand, will only slightly interfere with tong and stock holding after it heals. I hope you hammer righthanded!

[ThomasPowers]

Well I'd go with dominant and non-dominant hands. As long as your dominant hand is usable you can do OK---of course if you saw "How to Train Your Dragon" the smith in it had a prosthesis that he could swap out "tooling" in---hammer, Beer mug, etc.

You can improvise a holding system with a bum non dominant hand fairly easily---Tong clips help a lot. One fellow I helped through his first S hook didn't have a left forearm or hand and managed to hold the tongs between his upper arm and body---with good tong clips of course! His issues were congenital and he was blow away that I didn't say he couldn't forge but just worked with him to do it in as safe as a manner as possible. Probably the happiest student I'd ever had at the end of his first hook! (This was at an SCA event that I bring a forge to every year I can go.)

[Matthew Paul]

I just wanted to give you guys an update.

I took the 10 or 12" section of track that I had, and flattened the top surface. Then I polished it. I took eight mild steel 1/4" rod stock and welded braces from the bottom of the under cut on the top rail, the the outer edge of the lower part of the I beam. I'll see if I can get some pictures, It's not 100% done yet. But, I welded it to the upright rail that I had as the stand for my other anvil. This setup moves material with much less force. I no longer have to put huge amounts of force into each hammer swing, rather I let the weight of the hammer do a majority of the work.

The first thing I did on this setup was try a forge weld. I had never been successful with this and was actually looking for classes on it. Well, I got my first forge weld to fully take and made some pattern welded 5160 and mild steel, just to try it. I'm very happy with this setup, but will ether need to figure out a way to put a hardy hole in it, or just mount the cast anvil on another stand so I can use the hardy and horn on that.

Thank you again everyone for your help. It is very much appreciated. I'll post pictures when I can.

Thomans: that's really cool that you got him to be able to work. My hand and wrist are in supprisingly good shape, considering what happened. I made a pair of tongs with a lock on them. So i grab the material with teh tongs in my right hand, and lock them. My left hand has enough strength to support them while I work the piece. It seems to be working out well with the smaller material that I work with.

[Matthew Paul]