aurox Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 i got 10 min on library computer here goes, file into a gouge, i am half way through, i am running by my plan of action, feedback on what makes sense and not welcomed, soften, heat to non magnetic in oak coals, stuff into ash to slow cool, soft enuf to grind to shape, heat again to create cup along center by impacting with cold chisel with file/gouge in angle iron , heat again to bright orange ? and quench to harden, quench in water probably, is oil better? or different result? temper to desired hardness, straw color?, bluish? this is where i am especially not sure, mount into handle and gouge away the oak burl into a bowl. i have done cold shaping/pounding with old saws all blades in past, did again but it bent all up on green burl wood any advice appreciated tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurox Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 4 minutes left, i plan to do similiar process with a leaf spring into a draw knife, softening,except while hot chiselling out the tangs is leaf spring need to be treated different than a file? does the bevel need to be ground, or is punding with hammer possible? i know i can try both, figure i d ask, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurox Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 apology for the haste and craziness, my idea is: heat and soften spring, and i wonder if that is different than for a file if they are too different of carbon steels then grind the bevel, or heat and pound bevel crudely if soften enough i may try to cold chisel the tangs out, if not then heat and chisel out hot, any ideas that would work better? heat and bend tangs to desired angle, grind edge to sharpness attainable harden, then temper, and same question as with gouge, am i looking for bright orange then quench in water or oil? does it matter? and tempering am i looking for straw , bluish, i do not know, i would just keep trying different things if one didnt seem to fit how hard or soft to leave tangs? tips soft enough to peen over handles, does that mean the the first softening needs to be left intact, or whole tang can be soft enough to bend, but probably not with spring anyways. jees as i write this i get more questions and library is closing, back to woods, and whomever reads this thanks tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 With these types of things consider it a learning project,,and I think you already do! It does not seem like you have heated any metal and beat on it to reshape it. This will give you that opportunity. A couple of things: I would not heat a piece of steel and hit it with a cold chisel to form it to a guoge shape. And I am not sure if a piece of angle iron will do wot you wish. A hammer will push the gouge shape into a bottom die. I thinnk an agle iron will jump around and may even bend as you try aand use it for a bottom die. I have a big vise and would open it up a little less than the width of the file and take a cross pein hammer to it. At the first you spoke of heating to non magnetic and then cooling slowly,,good plan But then you dropped that plan and asked about wot color to heat it to harden. Use the magnet. I would not use water unless ; The oil quench did not harden it enough so a file would not cut it. If that happened I would try water. If thatg did not harden it I would toss it and start over. Some files do not harden with our shop methods. i would temper it in an oven after i removed any trace of oil from it. TRy 350f for a half hour, and see if a file will cut it. if it does not try 375 for 45 minutes. same file test,,If a file does not cut it is too hard and will likely chip. temper again,,,try more time. You get the point. And you need to research heat treat, There is stickies on this site that will help you. It is late and I am not going to look them up for a link..If you rty all the above and need more help just ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I would definitely try oil first and thing about doing a differential temper on it after hardening. The shaft of a chisel is better tough than hard and brittle. I would hammer out the bevel on most cutting tools *hot* and grind or file to refine cold. Tangs on a drawknife should be soft and tough. One method is to not heat them when heat treating but may be easier to do a full harden and then draw their temper back to full blue or *more*. Since you are at a library ask the desk if you can do an ILL (inter Library Loan) on Weyger's "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" that includes his book "The Making of Tools". Most US libraries have ILL. However I don't know what country you are in. Why folks expect a paragraph on-line written by *anybody* to replace hundreds of pages written by an expert.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBrassaw Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I would hammer out the bevel on most cutting tools *hot* and grind or file to refine cold. I've only done a few beveled cutting edges, and I did them this way. It makes sense to me, the reason being that there is less material to remove through grinding, even if your hammered bevel is rather rough. Are there any other reasons to do it this way? Or just the hammering-is-faster-than-grinding reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Hammering the bevel will shatter the grain of the steel resulting in a more durable cutting edge if done properly. Generally, you want to pack these bevels at just below austenite (around 1475 farenheit or, before it becomes magnetic) for best effect, as heating to above austenite will tend to result in the grain structure "regrowing". Somewhere, I have a PDF document on heat treating and metallurgy that is geared for blacksmiths, lotsa good info in there on the particulars of why forging tends to be superior... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 On modern steels you can refine the grain by proper heat treat and "packing" is not needed anymore. Pluses for forging the bevel is it's *faster* and more *fun* than grinding. Minuses including you can mess it up and decarb can be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurox Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 hey all. thanks for the replies, i did actually buy weygers books today before reading the recomend. to do so from a friend i have called. well i dont expect replacement info but sometimes people will write info that is not written in the pros books on other subjects i have found. but many thanks to you all, tim i will update on how the projects turn out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurox Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 so the gouge works, i ended up getting a propane torch for the tempering, brought it to a purple. the edge holds well being pounded into wood, but the tang that i pounded into the handle came right through the side of the handle. so i figure i will peen the end of the tang flat like most gouges. i would prefer to make a female cone to accept a wood handle that can be replace easily. i need more experience before that though. my first tempering on the coals was too hard to get right and the edge broke off being too brittle. i had ground the bevel right after annealing, next time i would wait until after the tempering to grind the bevel as it heats up much faster seemingly than the rest of the full thickness blade. it sure takes nice chunks of oak out of the bowl though! and just received the book making tools by alexander weygers, and his modern blacksmith book is on the way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Weygers covers handle making for chisels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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