Jump to content
I Forge Iron

Timascus


Randy

Recommended Posts

Just for the record. I made the first titanium damascus in the early 1990's. Check the Blade Magazine September 1992. I used 6al4v with zirconium for some, 6al4v with commercially pure titanium, and cp ti with niobium for jewelry. Yes it is hard to grind and polish. On occasion it did get liquid in the box and very exciting when the trip hammer squeezed it out and fire flew every where. The dust from grinding can be hazardous and if it catches on fire it will crack water into hydrogen and oxygen resulting in a small or large explosion I tried to patent it and have mounds of legal docs but was denied and ran out of money for appeals...Good luck to those who try it is beautiful...

There are photos at this link. Putting pics on this forum is defeating my limited computer skills.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.111823228949599.14685.100003657667824&type=3

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Just for the record. I made the first titanium damascus in the early 1990's. Check the Blade Magazine September 1992. I used 6al4v with zirconium for some, 6al4v with commercially pure titanium, and cp ti with niobium for jewelry. Yes it is hard to grind and polish. On occasion it did get liquid in the box and very exciting when the trip hammer squeezed it out and fire flew every where. The dust from grinding can be hazardous and if it catches on fire it will crack water into hydrogen and oxygen resulting in a small or large explosion I tried to patent it and have mounds of legal docs but was denied and ran out of money for appeals...Good luck to those who try it is beautiful...


Who are you?

Ric
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My mistake during the patent process was trying to patent the material, and all of the combinations of reactive metals. I knew there were to many ways to make the material and didn't have the $ to cover them all. At the time around 1990 I became interested in making Damascus in a box due to many inclusions and flaws cutting into my productivity. After initial success I realized there were many other possibilities with stainless and reactive metals. I talked to Shannon Chenault at Teledyne Wa Chang here in Or and realized the potential for amazing combinations. In a few years I worked out some basic protocols. The primary one is perfect cleanliness. No contamination allowed on the layers being put together easier said than done!

Concerning the various ways to laminate.In a box w/ vacuum or inert gas,explosively(big fun),powder metallurgy in a press, friction under rolls, electrically welded under rolls. Xxxx its been 20 years ago I think I forgot a few ways and I've been out of it so long there are probably ways to do it online now.Maybe there's an ap for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

I can speak about the South African making Timascus. He was at the Atlanta Blade show with some titanium damascus and actually calling it "Timascus". He was served with a cease and desist letter from our attorney for both the product using our patent and his use of our product name. He removed the material from his table and we have never heard from or about him since.
Titanium damascus can be made by anyone using our methods as long as it is for personal use and not commercially.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

The patent system is horribly broken. Obviously in some cases, patents are necessary to preserve a unique innovation that someone has spent a lot of time and money developing. However, it seem as though patents are mostly used to keep the top on top in big business as they seem willing to hand out patents for silly things. For example, Apple has a patent for mobile devices with 'rounded corners' as well as just about every design feature. So when a competitor such as Samsung released a better device, they just sued them and had it's sale banned. It discourages development or advancement as it eliminates competition. Not to mention the disgusting things that happen in the drugs industry that cost lives, companies patent medicines, charge an extortionate price that only the rich or desperate can afford, and deny the manufacturing of similar drugs which could be produces at less than a tenth of the price.

And in a case like this, patenting a process. What if someone patented the process of hardening ferrous metals by quenching? It's not a process that cost the developer a lot of money in research, yet no one else can use this process which eliminates all competition for that person. There are many cases where patents are necessary to protect investments, but far more which are used to prevent competition and keep prices up which stops the development of technology.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are some patent laws that are outright ridiculous. For instance, Monsanto patented a piece of genetic code in various crops, such as corn. Since they have the rights to the gene, they have rights to any and all plants that contain it. Hundreds of farmers have been sued for their livelihoods due to wind-blown seeds taking root in their fields.

If an inventor has labored for years and spent thousands out-of-pocket, I respect their right to be acknowledged and compensated for use of their brainchild. What I find gut-wrenching is when a patent is used as a weapon against others for illegitimate gain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know of a few that got very sneelky lawyers that turned those law suits around on them, Stating entrapment and another how the genitic mutantions have contaminated their crops via that wind, and counter-sued for damages, as most peopole do not trust mutated foods.
:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had an old slate shingle ripper and a house with a slate roof. I gave it to the folks maintaining it and you would have thought I had given them it's weight in gold. *Definitely* a niche market there.---I'd send them your way Steward but we sold that house over 8 years ago; however Durable Slate in Columbus OH might be a possible customer for you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I think smiths need to adopt the idea of open community, just like software developers (Linux is a great example of this), it works, ideas get re-engineered because it is open, who benefits is the community of smiths, and those that think they need recognition get recognition. When it comes to smithing nothing is really new, it's just old ideas re-discovered and reapplied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

I think smiths need to adopt the idea of open community, just like software developers (Linux is a great example of this), it works, ideas get re-engineered because it is open, who benefits is the community of smiths, and those that think they need recognition get recognition. When it comes to smithing nothing is really new, it's just old ideas re-discovered and reapplied.

 

I can not support this highly enough! In college in the late 90's I spent one entire summer off college doing 16 hours a day programming trying to fix a major shortfall in the Visual Basic programming language in how weak it was in textual database processing. Took me months building a hyper powerful little add-on for VB that increased the speed of it's database handling by a couple orders of magnitude. Using C++ mixed with snippets of assembly language to build the add-on. Discussed it, when I was finished, on a VB mailing list, several people showed great interest, so I mailed them off the finished .DLL and the source code as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly I would like to thank Ric Furrer for showing me 'his' method !  I can attest that he is very proficient at making the stuff. I'm based in South Africa where I have a larger scale industrial production type  workshop and  both the labor and the raw material is cheaper but out of respect I would not compete with him in a limited market .

 

I can't see how anyone could claim that 'can' welding could or should be patented. I respect that people want to 'protect' their 'system/invention' well yes but then keep the system secret , someone may just substitute vinegar for inert gas and "bob's your uncle" so to speak.  There are books published in 2005 showing the process so 'someone else' must have had a handle on it at least 2 years ahead of that.

 

Some years ago I was fortunate enough to be invited by Phillip Baldwin of Shining Wave metals to see his process for producing Mokume and like Ric this guy is also a master of his art, once again the 'process' isn't new yet used in a very clever and if I might say innovative way.

 

As for the 'Hofi' hammer well Uri has been brilliant at the marketing thereof and that deserves credit. But I'm not convinced that the shape was entirely 'new'    That said if he has taught someone and they then proceed to hurt his market then that's just not 'cricket'.

 

Just think 'Hoover' a tool for sucking up dust and by now a generic term, even a Dyson(does a much better job of it) gets called a 'Hoover'

 

I can only reiterate the dozens of smiths worldwide have shared generously their skills technique and methodology(and most generous hospitality to boot) and for this I am most grateful. In turn I have shared my boundless ignorance :) I believe in karma and so I do my best to pay it forward and endeavor never to take food off another mans table.    

post-13949-0-70763600-1422718129_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...

Patent is a word that means 'obvious, visible for everyone'

A long time ago (fifteenth century AD) it was a problem that trade secrets remained secret (sometimes even lost) and could not benefit society. It was decided to build a system where an inventor could file for exclusivity during a limited time against that he made the invention available to the public. Thus a requirement for a patent is that the inventor writes a paper explaining the invention so that anyone can benefit. At the same time, this paper defines the invention for which exclusivity is claimed. Another requirement is that the invention is new - most applications that fail do so on this criterion.

Patents are on inventions. A Hofi hammer is not an invention. It is a design and could have been protected by registering the design - provided Mr H had been able to define the design as unique and new. The process is similar to registring a patent. Had he done that, he could have sued the plagiators.

To put the name 'Hofi' on it is probably illegal but to put 'Hofi style' probably not.

This is a legally interesting case. Mr H could claim that the false Hofi hammers are sold because of his reputation; not because of the (unregistered) design. He could claim compensation - not for designing the hammer - but for being Mr Hofi.

Unfortunately patent law and litigation today is so complex and expensive that it is much better for a small inventor to keep his invention secret (if possible). There are several cases where a big company has managed to deprive the inventor of his rights (especially if the inventor is a foreigner). In other words: The lawyers have managed to turn the clock back to early medieval times. :angry:

One problem is that the same unpatented know-how and inventions may surface quite independently at the same time in different organizations. The time for the invention was ripe. When people find out, they suspect theft/espionage and the climate deteriorates.

Have a nice day (without legal fees):D

Göte

 

 

 

 

Edited by gote
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...