Randy

Timascus

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Randy,
I have another method for making titanium laminate"TI-LAM"....however there are several ways to skin this cat.
Since I have no patent... I protect my method by not telling anyone.....seems simpler that way.

Ric

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am confused ... do people, can people, really patent processes like this? and why is it so special and secret - is it alchemy :) ? surely anyone can choose to do a certain process if they find out how? what would you make with it randy?

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Because sadly there are too many people that think its Ok to steal ideas, partially because they say ideas cant be owned. I suspect these same people never really had a usable idea them selves.

Think about it you take time ( years?) to work out a solution to a problem. it cost you time and money to test your theories. then you have it !

The next day you show people the simple way to manage this problem all have had for years... One of those sells your idea to someone to use, after you had shown them what you found, making the money and you are left out. Some people think that is ok (the thieves that do this themselves no doubt) but if they can get away with this, are you going to try to solve any more problems after being robbed? Not just the real credit which IS deserved, but can you now afford it after it was stolen and you could not even recover your investment?

Of course not, so we all end up suffering in the long run, if we do not protect copyright and Patients.

As for the Ti mokome, if you have read up on this, Ti can take on a rainbow of colors from heat, and/or electrical charge. IF you think damascus steel is cool, add in reds, blues, gold, orange, green.. and in the same billet one can have a few colors....

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master sells, i agree with you, i can see Why you would want to patent something, and thats entirely fair etc etc, but i just dont see How you could ever stop people using it or doing it themselves....

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So he is forge welding in an inert gas environment hardly a major leap of logic. I'm sure there is more to it than that but if you asked me how one might do it that's where my mind would go.

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master sells, i agree with you, i can see Why you would want to patent something, and thats entirely fair etc etc, but i just dont see How you could ever stop people using it or doing it themselves....


You can't.....If someone makes a timascus knife for himself or even to sell to another It's virtually impossible to inforce the patent.....Someone who actively markets timascus would likely hear from Mr Ferry's attourney...........

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Sadly this is exactly one of the problems Uri Hofi has had, He states that he is the only person to make real Hofi hammers. Others have pirated the design, some even worked out a deal for the manufacture, then later refused to pay him his royalties! Hofi spent too much time and money trying to enforce his claims, and people wonder why its such a long wait to get a real one? he fears making the mistake of trusting a 3rd time. He has already been scammed at least 2x. See the thread in "Article section" he posted for more details from Mr Hofi himself. Its free right to use a similar shape, but why do the some of the others stamp/mold "Hofi" on the side of them if they are being honest?

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Did he patent it? If not, he has no special claim to the shape. But I'm sure he has a trademark right in the name. (I looked in the article section but the only article that obviously might apply, about the Habermann hammer, didn't say anything about this.)

On second thought, the shape might constitute trade dress.

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I make a tool that is not patented the person who designed it is dead. If this person had patented and they should have, they would be making a few thousand a year in royalties biased on my sales. I made mine from scratch and the design is different from the original. That being said I had no idea at the time of the tools origins. I was asked by a person make this tool for them custom. It snowballed from there. Most of my customers find me. There are also web sites devoted to making your own put up by other crafts persons. I think the main reason I sell so many is because no one really wants to make them and there is not enough demand to set up a production line to make them by 1000's. Sometimes for very niche products its not having a patent or copyright but maintaining quality and reliability over the long haul. I have had some competitors over the years but they seem to give up after a wile.

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Dan Maragni has a patent (I think it is timed out by now as it was from the 1980's) in which he has legal rights to the ladder pattern of pattern-welded steel.
There are many things that are patented which should not be, but there are many hundreds of patents issued every day...and once you get past the signatures that due diligence has been done by the patent applicant (lawyers and searches and such) it most always gets granted. This means that they then have the right to sue if they believe the patent is infringed upon...it does not mean that they will win or that the patent will survive the first court case.

As to what the Timascus patent is...it is a "method patent" same as Al Pendray/Dr. John Verhoeven's patent on wootz crucible steel. They have a method of production which is novel enough to allow them to have the right to sue those who do the same with the intent to profit by the same method of production. One can not patent wootz crucible steel now patterned titanium as there is prior art in both, but one can patent a method of production.
I respect both patents and have come up with another novel way of making the same...as my method is different it does not fall under the patent. Of course if they wish to challenge my process they need to sue and even than there are ways for a judgment to be rendered without the other side learning my methods. So no gain there for them.

At any rate...as Phil said...many folk have jobs just looking at patents and gleaning what information they can and either using that info or patenting new stuff related to them.
The concept of a patent is to get exclusivity to a thing or to license that thing.....to make money before all the other folk come along and do the same or similar thing.

also..keep in mind Colt went broke defending his patent to the revolver.....and they still made revolvers.

If it makes any difference I went out of my way to find other ways to do what I do...took years. If you have it in mind to make a thing you can work out a way to do so.
I am sure Randy will come up with his own way.

as to the Hofi Hammer...sounds like an issue over contracts and not patents or copyright. As to the name..if one wished to be a jerk one could incorporate under the business name "hoffi" and make hammers with that mark with no issue I would think. I seem to recall a tool I have from harbor freight marked "Chicago" and another marked "Philadelphia". I would not be surprised if there are cities in China named after american cities and stamped "made in xxxxxx"
In the days of Sheffield steel some Solingen, Germany cutlers would have a shop in England and stamp all the work "made in Sheffield" .....till the guild in Sheffield passed laws that 80% of the work needed to be done in that city to use the stamp. I believe the US has similar paws and I see many tools now say "assembled in USA" rather than "made".

At any rate I think I have gone off the track, right down the hill and across the river from Randy's question and I apologize.

Ric

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No problem and thanks. The patent issue is an important one. I'm not interested in making timascus or ti-lam, but just curious to what was involved as most of what is done in forging of ti has to be done with out forge welding. Most of the pieces I've made had to be out of one piece or pieces assembled with wrapping or typical assembly techniques with out welding. Looks like this new process won't help there, but very interesting any way.

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"As to the Hofi Hammer...sounds like an issue over contracts and not patents or copyright. As to the name..if one wished to be a jerk one could incorporate under the business name "hoffi" and make hammers with that mark with no issue I would think."

Wouldn't count on that one, Ric. Not patent or copyright, no. Trademark. Confusion in the marketplace. Just like if you sold something that looked a little like, say, a Mag Lite, and you called it a Mag Light. You might get sued over that. I won't say how I know. :)

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Being of Norwegian ancestry, I will make a car under the name Fjord, a blue oval sounds nice...hmmm

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"As to the Hofi Hammer...sounds like an issue over contracts and not patents or copyright. As to the name..if one wished to be a jerk one could incorporate under the business name "hoffi" and make hammers with that mark with no issue I would think." Wouldn't count on that one, Ric. Not patent or copyright, no. Trademark. Confusion in the marketplace. Just like if you sold something that looked a little like, say, a Mag Lite, and you called it a Mag Light. You might get sued over that. I won't say how I know. :)


Matt,
Apparently you just add "&" and its OK:
http://www.amazon.com/QUINT-iGAGING-BRIGHT-MAGNETIC-WORKBENCH/dp/B004ODSLUA/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1325470592&sr=1-1

Trademarks are interesting things...logos,sounds, odors...the unconventional trademarks...I find very confusing.

As to "confusion in the markeplace".....well there is similar and there is theft. I have an orange-ish Elmo I bough at Walmart (where I no longer shop)...horribly made and wrong in shape and color...yet has the "proper" tag. I would bet it was a knockoff.

Ric

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Being of Norwegian ancestry, I will make a car under the name Fjord, a blue oval sounds nice...hmmm


Steve,
There were two knife makers with the last names Davidson and Harley...they always planned to make a set of knives togehter and put their marks on them.....assuming nothing could be done by the motorcycle folk.
I wonder if that wold have been met with a letter.

As to FJORD...I am surprised your own vehicle does not have that on it already....or would that look odd?

I am in Green Bay Packer country here and was thinking about a mosaic damascus knife with a "G".....
Ric

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Matt, Apparently you just add "&" and its OK: http://www.amazon.com/QUINT-iGAGING-BRIGHT-MAGNETIC-WORKBENCH/dp/B004ODSLUA/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1325470592&sr=1-1


Two likely possibilities there: (1) Mag Industries hasn't noticed them yet; or (2) Mag hasn't figured out who (in a country that enforces intellectual property law -- China doesn't) to sue, yet.

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well..with patents they have 90 days to notify the person of possible infringement once they become aware of the issue....not sure about trademarks.

Matt, I am curious about your interaction with these laws....I sense a good story there.

Ric

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As I recall , wasn't Hofi's hammer based on a design by Freddie Habberman? Did Habberman get any royalties from Hofi? Almost any idea in a field as old as ours is simply built on the ideas of others. Twenty+ years ago blacksmiths shared ideas quite freely. The philosophy was that we all owed those who taught us , and were to repay their knowledge by passing it on. All that seemed to change in the late 90s.

And how XXXXXXX would one get any claim to pattent a ladder pattern? 1000 yr old examples exist so ___________ invented it last week? As absurd as all the folks I have met who claim to have invented damascus steel, or rediscovered it.

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As per a very well known South African bladesmith, Titanium Damascus is quite easy to make, although for various legal reasons he calls it Ti-cume and it cost him $25 to work out how to do, so has no particular problem sharing his method with anyone.

Method:

1. Use only traditional box method
2. Grade 2 & 6AL4V Ti layers
3. Remove all air as per box method
4. Heat as per normal damascus, soak a bit longer
5. Hammer very carefully, by hand or treadle, no air or mechanical hammer
6. Limited to random/ladder/pool&eye/twist

Because the Ti becomes fluid like in the box, you can do the patterning while still in the box and hammer it flat again without loosing any material.

Apparently a XXXXXXX to grind and work, but hey no one said it would be easy, but it is very possible and just as cheap as normal damascus to make.

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As I recall , wasn't Hofi's hammer based on a design by Freddie Habberman? Did Habberman get any royalties from Hofi?


If you meant they are both hammers, Yes, as for royalties .. Why? BB and Ozarks never paid Hofi, and they even used his name! there is a long post from Mr Hofi himself addressing these issues if you care to know the full story. Here is one thread

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