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heat treating a double edged knife


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I'm looking for advice. I bought Ed Caffrey's video on knife making a while back and I was trying to heat treat 5160 his way (Edge quench 3 times and temper 3 times 2h at 350). So far this has been working out well for me, but now my crazy brother wants a knife to stab a pig. Apparently you can hog hunt with a big knife in some states. The outfitter recomends a sharpend clip. So I would like to build a knife out of 5160 with a hardend clip, but it needs to be very strong. Right now I was thinking of heating the whole blade to non magnetic 3 times and quenching in oil but tempering around 400 deg to give me a little more flex. I would think edge holding would not be as big a factor as durability.

Anyone have any thoughts? or advice?

Thanks
Brad

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I have a knife maker friend who went on a boar hunt with a spear point he had made. Had long wooden handle on it.
When he stuck his pig his spear turned into a stick the point still in the hog. Made the hog quite mad. buddy really
uncomfortable for a while. He said that was the last time for him.

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It seems to me as if you have a good understanding of basic hardening and tempering/ I believe for a wider range of knowledge it is time for shop work. Its just not fun making test blades and ht'g them and doing testing to see how they work and hold up. A great place to start for ideas onn how to test is to look up the abs testing standards and work The above mention of the blade failure on a pig could have likely been avoided if the shop time was behind that blade. Not picking on the maker of that blade. but it stresses me to see anyone make and sell a blade without fully knowing what that blade will do and will not do. This testing is best done on one metal at a time until you are right with everything you can do to that steel.. Then new pages and a different steel. When you go back to a steel you have not used for along time a quick glance at the log and you are right there again.

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The above mention of the blade failure on a pig could have likelly been avoided if the shop time was behind that blade. Not picking on the maker of that blade. but it stresses me to see anyone make and sell a blade without lfully knowing what that bladee will do and will not do.


I'm not entirely clear on what broke: the spear point, or the shaft of the spear?
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I have seen a movie where two wart hog boars ran down a leopard... twice! The first time they had double the distance that the leopard did to cover... they hit him broadside and rolled him like he'd been hit by a train! He headed for the brush and they caught him from behind and trampled him. As the leopard rolled to his feet they turned around to finish him and he took a giant leap over their heads and made it finally to the brush! Everyone who wants to hunt boar with a knife should watch that movie first! All the animals were wild! The boars were protecting their young ones. The speed of those critters is awesome! If I had to face one with a knife I'd want a very long one... at least a katana!

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Look into L6 or even 4340 if you are very concerned about toughness.
No need to a very hard edge here..45 rockwell will poke just as good as 58 rockwell....how hard is flesh anyway?

From what Larry Harley has said about his hog hunts (he has used knife and spear in the past..and has a wonderful story about why spears have a large cross piece on them)
http://www.lonesomepineknives.com/HawgHunts.asp
He suggest not using the "singer sewing machine" approach to cutting the pig, what you need is blood loss leading to unconsciousness due to a drop in blood pressure...so a stick and turn and hold...not pokey pokey. A wide blade.... over 2.5" ....preferred over a 1.5".
Same with spears..W..I..D..E...4" is not out of the realm of possibility. Have a look at African spears....thin and wide.

Oh.....And have a good sidearm at the ready as well as a pack of dogs holding the critter down.

I made a buffalo spear for a guy from 1086 and apparently it worked well from horseback.

Ric

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Good ideas guys thanks. I think I will stick with 5160 for two reasons, 1 it has a good reputation for toughness 2 I know 5160 better than other steel types. I never thought about width as a factor, I will now.

Brad

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True enough -- but at least on a horse you can run away good 'n' fast. :lol:

KNIGHTS: Aaaaugh! Aaaugh! etc.
KNIGHTS: Run away! Run away!
TIM: Haw haw haw. Haw haw haw. Haw haw.
ARTHUR: Right. How many did we lose?
KNIGHT: Gawain.
KNIGHT: Hector.
ARTHUR: And Boris. That's five.
GALAHAD: Three, sir.
ARTHUR: Three. Three.

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Pigs are faster than dogs and much heavier. I think it would take a bunch of dogs to hold a pig. If you keep your feet I think a pig would have trouble inflicting a life threatening injury on a man... unless he was really big. I am pretty sure they could hurt you badly though. Do they hunt boars? Or just any pig? Because the sows are much less dangerous... still scary though.

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I think that if it is not a boar it is not a hunt, but I am not sure I would poke any of them with a stick.

youtube has some horrible stories..some self induced, some not.



A gun is looking pretty good...distance seems to be the key...or at least.... not grabbing it by the ears....

Ric
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Wild pigs can easily kill a man just rip up the leg with the tusks and let them bleed out.... Most of the medieval/renaissance dog armour I have seen was actually designed for boar hunting and there is a reason for a stout spear with a stout crosspiece as the hunting weapon!

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A lot of the old timers around here would use Plott hounds and pit bulls for boar hunting; the Plotts for the trail and the pits for the catch.

One pit holding the ear, one the hind leg, and the hunter just steps in and cuts the boar's throat.

They had to use a choke chain to make the bulldogs turn loose.

The last one my grandfather killed was with a Case Sodbuster.

Sounds rough, but times used to be a lot rougher.

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If a 200-400+ pound animal doing 15 or 20 mph hits you around the knees, you're going down. And once you're down on piggy's level you're in Very Big Trouble. 70-80 lb. dogs kill people sometimes. A boar several times that size can certainly manage it without too much trouble.

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  • 1 month later...

i went last year in texas and we used dogs, the dogs got on one and i jumped out the utv and took off into the brush an the hog got loose. 100 yards later i caught up to them and they were in a four foot deep pit. i jumped in with my beyonet and stabbed the hog in the heart and with a good twist it was dead. the hog was 315 lbs. we had a good time and brought home a ton of meat. good trip!

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My grand grand-pa was hunting bears and hogs with single shot rifle and axe. Of course hi was almost 7 foot tall blacksmith and could straiten horse shoe by hand (don't know how far newer met him) Any way 5160 hard edge and soft back 12-18 inch blade will bend up to 45 degrees safely. So short spear Zulu style and short sword or axe will satisfy your man vs wild (hog) call. I would keep .357 nearby just in case.

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What I have herd about hunting Boar.
1 if using a spear make it big and with a stoute and sturdy cross guard. They can run up a spear if it dosent stop them from doing it. With the weights and sizes descibed here I belive it. A lot of momentum can make big creatures ignor anything but fatal leg dropping wonds, or enough force to overpwer that momentum.
2 if using guns
A. Use a scope on a powerful hunting rifle. Location location location drop it from a distance and walk up to collect when you know its dead. If I remember right the advice was to go for the temple or from behind the ear. The skull is said to be tough and able to deflect glancing shots. Make sure it hits and drops them.
B. As with A's point on location do not aim for the chest in the front. Apparently that is the thickest part of the skin. One gunsmith/hunter was telling me about one he droped, when they went to clean out that area he found some 45 rounds and at least 1 shotgun slug. Maybe it was a lucky or a abnormaly tough one but that convinced me its a shoot, not stab target.

So to me it sounds like this is a job for big weapons, A spear sure, a warhammer with a nice spike to get through that skull sure, a Smith and Wesson 500 thats what those were made for. (It's 50 cal revolver that hurts to shoot but can help when dealing with boars or bears that are more lively then you thought they would be.)

Thom, a former Gunsmithing student from Nor CA where they had some interesting stories to share witha city boy.

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