Hayden H Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Didn't think of that. I just wonder why everythings outa stock. PArdon my ignorance, whats the XXXXXXXXXXX grinder?Mod note: As I am sure you remember from when you read the Terms of Service located at http://www.iforgeiro...revised-9-2011/ when you joined, that we run a G rated forum. So foul language is edited out and replaced with XXX, We do have minors as members and more than one member can not see well enough to read comfortably so has grandchildren read the forum to him. One does not wish to explain to a small child some of the words that were behind the X's in some posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunterbow Smithy Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Personally I think I would go for the KMG as a first option; I used one last weekend and it was a great machine. Considering all of the "miscellanious" costs and headaches that my current home built has cost me, I could have easily purchased a KMG or at least the chasis.....if they were sold in Canada that is. Honestly, I would rather be making knives than grinders any day. However, if you are determined to go the home built way, you may want to check out the grinder plans offered on the little machine shop web page. http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2717&category=-1402768559 It looks like it is pretty straight forward and easy to build. The other suggestion that I would make is to purchase your contact & drive wheels from Sunray Inc as their prices are very reasonble and they can build whatever you need. http://www.sunray-inc.com/ Ask for Sean if you call and he can help you make your selections. Be forewarned though that you need to specify exactly what you want. Best of luck to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Striker Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 John, What size motor did you get and does it work well without the VFD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Do remember that wheels can be turned on a lathe out of a wide variety of materials, including steel and aluminum (take steps to lighten the steel wheels by drilling or removing extra material) It is only contact wheel that need to have a "soft" flexible surface. You can even do this on an older manual lathe without too much effort, even if the lathe is in poor (but usable) condition you can make good wheels. Remember to measure the bearing pockets several times as you approach the proper inside diameter, can't do much after it is over sized Keyway(s) for the drive wheel(s) can be sawn in - by hand with a hacksaw - if needed. Scribe the slot on both sides accurately, saw it under sized and clean up with files. There is no reason you can't get all of these grinders built in class running and usable, but you may be forced into buying contact wheels, I don't know how to make a coating on them in an affordable manner. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Y Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Iron Striker The motor is a horse and a half, 3450 rpm and is working well without the VFD. I tried one of the speed controls for a router on the motor, but blew that up. I imagine you have much more control with the VFD and I would love to have one, but for now this is working great for me. John I wrote that I used the H - E - double hockey sticks out of the grinder in my previous post and that was X'd out...didn't mean to offend anyone, I appologize if I did... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Striker Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I appreciate the pics of your grinder and your input. I went ahead and ordered the GIB. I also printed off the instructions from the Polar Bear web site. I don't know if they were available when you bought yours, but it sure helps me understand the task at hand. Jamie Herring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Y Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Jamie, I went to PBF website and looked for the instructions and didn't find them...where did you find them? JL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Striker Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Jamie, I went to PBF website and looked for the instructions and didn't find them...where did you find them? JL Under the GIB selection there is a selection called "Assembly". It has pics and verbage. If you PM me your email I can send it to you. Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Router speed controls work on motors with brushes. If it doesn't burn out the controler it will burn out the motor. Likewise trying to use a light dimmer switch. You can use the router speed control for angle grinders and tools like that. You can get adjustable speed by using pillow blocks, step pulleys, a belt and shaft. When I started building grinders that was my set up and I could not figure out why everyone was to hot on VFDs,,,,then I build a direct drive grinder with a VFD and could not believe the difference. Now I only push selling belt grinders with a VFD except on special orders. The difference in the cost of a Moe's grinder with a VFD or with the step pulley setup is little enough that it really does not make sense to go that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayden H Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 How much to VFD's cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayden H Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 I put pen to paper, and which would end up being cheaper? The KMG comes with a flat platen and completely assembled other than a motor. The No-Weld you have to build, probably $300-$400 in wheels, $75 in metal, $200 for a motor and $50 for other parts, plus labor. So... It'd be close to $700 to build a No-Weld. The KMG comes completely ready to go out of the box other than the motor at $750. Which one is quieter? Which tracks better? Which in the long runs more cost effective? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 If you are stuck using all new metal the KGM sounds like a deal, that is a lot of labor for $50, and a turnkey solution is pretty handy in quite a few ways. A whole lot less likely to have surprise costs too! If you can use "scrap" metal and used motors at less cost than you start getting a large price difference. The "grinder in a box" and scratch build plans also allow for you to choose the motor and belt sizes. Nothing wrong with setting it up to run more than one belt length at a given width, long belts have longer service life because, they are longer. Any way you do this you will have service intervals, scheduled and non-scheduled maintenance. Bearings and motors should have similar scheduled maintenance requirements when new. Using "used" parts will increase the chances of a non-scheduled downtime, but motors are quite reliable as long as a proper selection is made, and the selection is in good condition. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 How much to VFD's cost? a guess will be about 50% more money than the same Hp without the vari-drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunterbow Smithy Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 How much to VFD's cost? A VFD will cost you between $300 - $500 depending on the quality of the unit you get. Some of the nicest units on the market is KB Electronic's Genisis models. Not sure what they retail for South of the border, but I priced a new one up here and it was $750.00. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayden H Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 XXXXXXXXX ! I'm not spennding $300-$500 on something to alter belt speed. I'll go with 4 speed pulley setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Yes, VFDs are not cheap, however for what they do most think they are worth it. Direct drive with a VFD compaired to the step pulley adjustable speed not only do you have greater control, the direct drive runs smoother and quieter, there is less places for vibration and friction to come into play. You are using a 3 phase motor has better torque than a single phase motor so the motor seems to have more power. They are harder to bog down than a single phase motor and with the direct drive there no belt for potental slipage. Building a grinder with step pulleys you will probably spend over $100 for the pulleys, pillow blocks, shaft and belt. Just consider that you reduced the price of the VFD by what you would have spent for all these parts. When I first started building and selling belt grinders I was building grinders with step pulleys and said, "What do I want a VFD for I've got 4 speeds with my adjustable speed." Well, customers kept wanting VFDs so I got a distributorship, then figured if I was going to be selling them I needed to build a grinder using one so that I could inteligently discuss them. I could not believe the difference. If you have questions or I can help you just call me, or send an e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 You are not committed to go VFD or step pulleys until you have the frame built to be used only one way. You could design a frame that can be used either way and defer buying the VFD or step pulleys till later in the project. You have mentioned that some of your instructors have leads on salvage yards and used equipment houses. Work these leads. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayden H Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 I am from Texas, I take no offense to any analogy or comment. (As long as its English). I gotta make $2,000 before Summer starts. ($1,000 as a debt, and $1,000 for a KMG) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 For 2 HP a Teco VFD can be had for $144.00. --->HERE And you'll save most of that on a cheaper motor and pulleys and controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 I know this is all wayy more pricey than wot you might have been thinking at the beginning. However it is wot it is. One of the things I learned early on is anywhere I tried to save a few bucks I almost each and everytime ended up spending more later on as the cheaper item just did not do wot I wanted. And you also might take thatl ine of thinking farther: Belts come at all prices, they break down into cheap or good. You need good, Most folks that spend all the money they have end up buying cheap belts. They simply do not last at all. I have not read all of this thread but since it is in the knife making forum i will guess you wish to make blades. If you use cheap belts on heat treated steel keep a trash can handy and you can just toss them when they no longer remove metal. the other thing that you want to address is how to finish the flat sides of blades. Will your belt grinder do that? Or do you need a flat grinding grinder? If you need that you will need wet or dry abrasives for it. An alternative is to make blades the old way, Do all of the work, rough and finishing by hand. Done well they can be excellent. Sell a small pile of knives done that way and make some money for equipment. Get a copy of fifty dollar knife shop for tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Grant that VFD is not dust proof and unless it is put in an inclosure (with filtered ventalation) it probably won't last long and the cost of a large enough enclosure and filtered ventalation provided you would probably spend as much as for a NEMA 4X unit. I looked into similar units and found that I could not offer them to my customers for our purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayden H Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 I have Wayne Goddards $50 Knife Shop, Blades Guide to Making Knives, and a Blacksmithing Book with 25 pages on hardening and tempering. I've made knives by hand using old files and saw blades, but I can't hold anything in my hand with good grip for long periods of time. (Thats what happens when you play peg soccer with a tennis ball and get kicked straight in the end of your pointer and ring fingers. Broke the joint and pushed it back so I can't grasp ridgidly to hold files) I own two 1 by 30 sanders. (They don't work very well, unless your using it to sand excess handle material away) And an ancient 4 by 36 Craftsman. I;ve used the 1 by 30's alot to do blades, its just very slow going Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Striker Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 If you were going to use a VFD with a 2 hp 3 phase motor, would it be better to go with single phase 230 input or 120 input? The 230 input to 230 output that I have seen are less expensive than the 120 input to 230 output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 If you were going to use a VFD with a 2 hp 3 phase motor, would it be better to go with single phase 230 input or 120 input? The 230 input to 230 output that I have seen are less expensive than the 120 input to 230 output. HP is Hp - there is no difference between 3phase or single phase (or old style 2 phase) motors output as HP IS the rated output. The comments some people make are hype with no facts to back them. Use what you have as a power supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 What power do you have available? Right now I would get a 120V single phase input, 220V 3phase output because I have only 120V available to me without rewiring (something that is in future plans...) If you have 220V available in your shop I would probably go with the better price then. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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