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Posted

I dont understand why you cant copy and past in this new format but its frustrating since I already wrote what I wanted to say and have to type it all over again.... Ugg..


Anyway

I am going to build a strange hammer... I dont have any use of another general forging hammer, I got those bases well covered. What I do want is a really powerful and controllable striking hammer, it will only be used with hand held or spring swage type tooling or dies.... So for a few days I have been thinking about what kind of guide I need, how I am going to put the frame together and it really struck me today that I dont need much of a guide, Die alinement is not an issue, heck I dont think I'll even have "dies" in the conventional sense ... I think i'll have a 6-7" round slug of 4340 that I will use as the top "die" and I have a 4" thick by 15" square chunk of A588 that will serve as the top of the anvil "die".... I have a pair of 8" square bars 32" long that will go side by side for the anvil and a 4" base plate so I will have a anvil weight of around 2000 pounds.... I am thinking for a ram I just need a chunk of like 4" chrome shaft that will slide up and down in a long derilin or nylon bushing... a tab at the top will go to a linkage that has the cylinder attached and the linkage will keep it from rotating much, and if it turns just a bit I cant see that it matters? I think the ram will be 150-200 pounds.... Thoughts?
I talked to ken who built the steam hammer linkage system yesterday and am going to buy his controls.... It seems to have the kind of control I want and I dont think I can mess around and build anything close to as good, especially for what he wants for the kit...

I know this is not typical..... The other thing that I keep going back to is I have that 300lb Chambersberg steam hammer sitting in my yard.... It wont run on air the way it is, at least not a reasonable amount of air.... But if I could use something like Kens linkage to get single blows from anyplace in the stroke... well it wouldn't take lots of air..... And man then you would really have something....

Posted

Well yes kind of..... But I want something that I can put big stuff in and hit it hard... The KA has good control for light-ish blows but it really doesn't hit that hard.... It would do everything a "normal" blacksmith would want to do... however I am not that guy I guess..... I want something that generates something like a 800-1000 foot pound blow, Of course if I had a Massey clear space hammer all of this would be pointless.... Maybe when the 4B is up and running I can do some of that kind of work under it....


I dont know what I am doing John.....let alone why. I thought about trying to revamp the KA 150 to work more like what I want but really it works so well as it is for some things I hate to mess with it....

Posted

I have not really done much with the single blow capability on the Massey yet. I should spend a day messing with it. When I have done a little I find it blows the oil dipstick out and sprays oil all over. I am not sure if I can run it by foot using the single blow or if I have to use the hand levers. There are some things it would be nice to use the single blow for

I may consider buying Kens valving as well and retrofitting my Kinyon hammer, although for most things I am very happy with the control I have. There are times I would like that single blow as well but not Massey hard. A good hard single blow for stamping with a 1/4" 4 digit number stamp is one thing I would like to be able to do but it is just too dangerous to do under the Massey not to mention running a 30hp motor. I can get a single blow with the Kinyon by lowering the pilot valve but with a single sharp blow I find the ram can bounce and I then get a second blow which messes up the stamp impression.

I would have to add a long control arm to my hammer and either mount the valve reversed or make a new arm out the top as my ram goes up inside the tube a couple of inches and I have a rod that comes out the top of the hammer to control the pilot valve.

Posted

The last thing I want is a drop hammer Sam.... What I want is all about control.. I want to be able to tap tap tap with a very large weight or give it a single wollop.... The more I think about it the more I think doing something with the 300lb Chambersburg is really the long term answer..

I am still going to build this hammer, maybe I'll end up building it more like a conventional hammer though just so I can sell it at some point..

Posted

The work tends to define the tool. What is it you would specifically make with this hammer that you can't do now? I don't want that to sound simplistic but I think you need to work backwards from the end use before deciding whether you should build it or not.

Posted

It's not about doing something I currently can't. If that was the criteria I don't think I can utilize 10% of the capability I currently have. It is much about interest in machines and fabrication of the hammer. I just believe all geetaur amplifier should go to 11 someone should be trying to figure out how to make them go to 12. Fact there's a pretty good chance that what it is going to change a dozen times before it gets built, if it Ever gets built....

Posted

Larry, I believe you can use a double ended hydraulic cylinder to serve as a ram and cylinder. Rich Waugh who posts on another couple of sites has such a Kinyon. He keeps the rod from rotating with a tab up top that sides in a groove. On the bottom you can have a disk for holding whatever you want for a die. It is my experience that hammers that have their cylinders centrally aligned with their hammer head perform better than hammers with offset cylinders.

Congratulations on breaking the log jam and oredering Ken's valve package. Are you free or inclined to tell us the price? It is intrigueing in its performace.

Posted

I would rather not post the price but if you want to call or email I'm happy to talk about it. I figure if Ken wants you to contact him for info I shouldn't make it public, I'll say I think it's very reasonable. I dont think I could build it for what he is asking even if I did know how..

Posted

I just had a idea for a guide system.... use a square solid (or tube I guess) and a pair of angle iron guides that ran on two corners with some strips of brass riveted in... you could use tie bolts front and back to adjust for wear.... If you used a tube you could put the cylinder inside and have long guides, lots of support area.... Maybe not a perfect set up but would be very easy to construct with no machining.... The head would be on the diamond to the frame... make sense? anyone ever seen or done anything like it?

Posted

I dont see the appeal of a stacked plate anvil? I mean the steel is almost the same cost per pound and you have all the extra work to do to cut it and assemble it to have something that is not quite as good? I mean if you had the plate and wanted to burn it up or found a deal on some plate I could understand... but if your buying material why not just buy a solid billet..... Im not against it, just seems like a lot of extra work for no real reason if your buying the steel anyway...

Posted
I just had a idea for a guide system.... use a square solid (or tube I guess) and a pair of angle iron guides that ran on two corners with some strips of brass riveted in... you could use tie bolts front and back to adjust for wear.... If you used a tube you could put the cylinder inside and have long guides, lots of support area.... Maybe not a perfect set up but would be very easy to construct with no machining.... The head would be on the diamond to the frame... make sense? anyone ever seen or done anything like it?



When I first built my hammer I used a tube inside a tube and had the attachment for the end of the cylinder down inside the tup tube. I welded a block of steel into the tube at the bottom and inside the tube using an electrodes bent to be in line with the stinger. (Stick does have some advantages) The cylinder I was using was a yoke type so i had to drill a hole through to insert the pin to couple them. I also had to cut a slot in the tube so it would not shear off the air hose coupler. The hole and slot never caused any problem. the tube did allow me lots of bearing surface while keeping the weight down. I was in a residential garage at the time and I wanted to limit shaking my neighbours. The internal tube was 5" which was tricky to work down inside.
Posted

Yeah I was thinking about using something like 8" 1/2" wall tube and 4" X 5/8 angle... you would almost have a box around the whole tube but not quite because of the 3/8" or so bronze bearing strips in the angle ... the only real advantage I can see is by implementing a way to "squeeze" the angle you could effectively take up slop in the guide system... my thought is a couple of inch wide strips on both sides of the leg would work nicely, give you lots of guide area... I think I would make the guides like 12-16" long... you could even have cut away the guide on the front and have the ram park up inside... that way you would have more tool clearance but still have the guides down a bit closer to the work...

Like I said, I dont think as far as a guide system its the end all be all, just that it would be very simple to build, seems like it would be pretty solid and would require no machining

Posted

I have seen a hammer with a similar style of guide but it was cast and machined. It was actually a self contained air hammer. There are pictures of the hammer somewhere on this site. My only concern with what you are describing would be that I think you should dowel the two halves of the guides together or maybe even bolt them tightly together with shims. So that the loose guide does not move up and down with the ram thus tightening and potentially locking things up. Why bronze rather than UHMW for the guides? I can see bronze for a press but the plastic works well for a hammer especially when things are not being machined. It is cheaper and needs less lubrication.

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