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I Forge Iron

What I learned from 2 Days With Brian


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First off, I am a slow learner but once I get it I tend to get it as well or better than most. I also learn as I screw up long after training is complete. Since we can't post pics perhaps this is more important. This list will grow over time. They are in no particular order.

1. I learned I could do it too - Hole punch
Example: punching a hole. I made a not so neat hole punch tool while he was here. He showed me to punch just like the slot punch video here. http://www.youtube.c...brazealblacksmi I did this three times after he left and have three nice slugs that came right out. This was using my not so neat hole punch. Easier than drilling particularly if the metal is wanting to harden on you. I wanted to show the pics of these slugs as they are beautiful! Now I know I can make my own punchs and use them to make holes that are easy and clean.

2. Have a specific Plan when you go to the Anvil
After he left and I was trying to make some stuff. I was frustrated at making very little progress on my project. The more I hit it the more it got screwed up or just did not go anywhere. So now I will do the following. I will not go to the anvil from the forge unless I know how I am going to hold the metal and exactly what kind of hit I am going to make and where how to stand etc. This needs to be very specific! If I make only one good hit that moves me forward with the project then that is success. One good hit is better than 10 pointless whacks. If I can see three good hits then so be it. Eventually I will see the next ten hits clearly and not just bang at it. No more hitting fast just to make sure I get as many hits in before the metal cools.

3. I need to learn to use and make some more tools.
We did some C Scrolls and banding. This was easy but is similar to #1. I could make many things from some simple tools using these technigues. Invest the time to make and learn the tools you need to do stuff. Then, make stuff! Sweet!

4. Be Precise first, speed will come in time.
This is similar to #2. I was making a leaf and basically used the veining tool to fast and screwed it up. All I needed to do was take my time, Aim, hit precisely and make a good leaf vein. Don't get caught up in the whole "did it all in one heat" macho BS. You ain't gonna start there.

5. Forge/Fire Control
I am going to be a bit vague on this one.... Get your fire above the metal and look for the "golden flame". The golden flame heats you up fast. Cranking on the blower at temps below this, conserving fuel and not having your heat above the metal is just wasting time.

Brian teaches a lot about basic hammer technigues that I also learned about. However, I think I need to go through much of the above (2,4,5) to really say I have learned those basics.

Anyway enough for now. More to come.

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  • 1 month later...

That hammer is nice. It's gonna take some time for the rest to take hold. Been working most of the day on scrolls and banding. THe scroll part has come together nicely. The scroll fork is really paying off. There is an art to a consistant scroll. And the fork is invaluable to me so far. NO prob making the bands. Getting them tight consistantly is a challenge. Gotta work more on the tooling. That's #3 above

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. NO prob making the bands. Getting them tight consistantly is a challenge. Gotta work more on the tooling.


Are you putting these "bands" (I assume these are what we in the UK call collars, bands either go around barrels or play music) on hot or cold?

If you are putting them on hot, they tighten up as they cool down,

You will always have difficulty putting on forged steel collars cold to make them tight, especially if they are a "chunky" section.

Here in the UK you can puchase rolled section collaring materials that are "soft iron" which are very malleable and can easily be wrapped to form a collar, however these are usually used to cover welded sections to make the finished item appear as looking historically correct (hand forged pre electric welding)

Cold fitting collars, do not normally make as good a mechanical joint as a good fitting forged collar that is shrunk fit when placed and fitted hot.

An alternative method we use is shown here http://www.iforgeiro...end-april-2011/ an alternative tooling method with the same end result, a collar to fit a specific joining area, (we like chunky collars)

We also use an adjustable tool for use in the flypress when making large quantities of collars for a specific job/size, method still the same
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Not quite sure what you mean by 'tooling' as the bits I've seen are basically a sized gap and a sized mandrel to form the shape, (as per what we use in the fly press tooling), is there anything else?

Please clarify, if you are not heating the completed collar and opening it out prior to fitting to the required position

How do you fit them cold?

Hydraulic clamp or big hammer ?

And what thickness of material are these cold fitted collars ?

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John,
Brian has a rather nice collaring tool that is essentially a 12" length of 1x2 with 2 3" pieces of 1x2 that are pinned to the 12" base with 1/2" round stock to create a 6" gap. He then uses various spacers to create whatever size gap he needs. Pinning the tool together rather than welding it allows it to find parallel even if your shim stock is less than straight. There is a thread here somewhere which shows the tools he uses.

Borntoolate,
Collaring with your bands hot, and your stock to be banded cold will allow the collars to shrink to the stock as they cool, helping you get them tighter. Though you can get them tight cold, it takes a bit more work, I have been using a slightly undersized (1/100 or so) top tool to form my collars, so that they have to really be hammered home. I then use the torch to heat the ears and knock them down. It seems to work for me pretty well. Dunno what Brian's thoughts on that are, but, it works for me.

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John, Brian has a rather nice collaring tool that is essentially a 12" length of 1x2 with 2 3" pieces of 1x2 that are pinned to the 12" base with 1/2" round stock to create a 6" gap. He then uses various spacers to create whatever size gap he needs. Pinning the tool together rather than welding it allows it to find parallel even if your shim stock is less than straight. There is a thread here somewhere which shows the tools he uses. Borntoolate, Collaring with your bands hot, and your stock to be banded cold will allow the collars to shrink to the stock as they cool, helping you get them tighter. Though you can get them tight cold, it takes a bit more work, I have been using a slightly undersized (1/100 or so) top tool to form my collars, so that they have to really be hammered home. I then use the torch to heat the ears and knock them down. It seems to work for me pretty well. Dunno what Brian's thoughts on that are, but, it works for me.


I understand Brians tooling, as it is in priciple the same as what I use under a flypress, except mine has adjustable 'stops' (actually blocks of 2" x1" that fit between two parallel guides. I set these blocks apart to the thickness of the pieces to be joined, plus twice the thickness of the collaring material and they are then held in position by gravity, and a backing locked screw that gives me the adjustment for the required gap.

The top tooling is in effect the mandrel I use to forge the collar around as in the illustrations shown,
I then can form the U shape either cold, or hot if over 1/4" thick, (I prefer to form them hot,)

The U is then forged around the mandrel whilst still hot, and either opened out ready to fit over the parts to be united, (and fitted whilst still retaining the heat) or left as a completed collar ready to be reheated and fitted when required, using scrolling tongs and hammer(s)

From what I understand, and I may be (probably am) wrong , the method you use is to forge the U shape hot, (slightly smaller than the assembly size) leave to cool (normalise) then when you need to use the collar, hit it cold to fit around the assembly,


So, what other tooling is required to do this that has to be made as Borntoolate is implying. Unless he is talking about hammers, tongs and the basic fixture

I can see hammering cold works somewhat on thinner sections of collar, but would be extremely difficult to do on thicker materials, Hence why you have to resort to localised heating, and not everyone has the equipment to do that.

I also find by forging the collars to shape around the mandrel, you get cleaner more square looking corners, and the shrink fit helps brace the enclosed pieces as intended.
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The tooling is nothing more than a single size hardy that I made for both forming the collar and then containing it while hammering the "ears over to close it up. I was using a stackable set like what Brian has but it was a bit makeshift and kept jiggling loose. Thus I made the single size hardy. Nothing more that a square opening to hammer the hot blank collar into to for it. 3/4" gap by 1/2" deep for collaring 1/2 x 1/4 bar using 1/8" thick collars. All welded togehter, the tool that is. At first it was too tight. Maybe a bit of weld shrinkage though I had a 3/4" bar maintaining the gap. Or maybe I needed a small amount of play more than the 3/4". I shaved the gap open and now it is to loose for both making the inital collar as well as to help contain the shape and tightness of the collar while hammering over the ears. So that is the tooling I am referring to. As it sits my collars are a little loose and it is my opinion it is because my gap is too great.

For a 1/4" + 1/4+ 2(1/8) collaring set up what gap should I set? Seems my 3/4" tight welded gap was a hair too small. Then again I had made the collars I was trying to close up on my sloppy jiggly tool so maybe that was part of my size mismatch. It all seems like growing pains and just getting out there and doing it until you stumble in all the little places and work out solutions. I will try what I have by closing up hot since I think that will get me the tightness I need to get these Christmas presents DONE! I'll tweak the tooling later.

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Are you putting these "bands" (I assume these are what we in the UK call collars, bands either go around barrels or play music) on hot or cold? If you are putting them on hot, they tighten up as they cool down, You will always have difficulty putting on forged steel collars cold to make them tight, especially if they are a "chunky" section. Here in the UK you can puchase rolled section collaring materials that are "soft iron" which are very malleable and can easily be wrapped to form a collar, however these are usually used to cover welded sections to make the finished item appear as looking historically correct (hand forged pre electric welding) Cold fitting collars, do not normally make as good a mechanical joint as a good fitting forged collar that is shrunk fit when placed and fitted hot. An alternative method we use is shown here http://www.iforgeiro...end-april-2011/ an alternative tooling method with the same end result, a collar to fit a specific joining area, (we like chunky collars) We also use an adjustable tool for use in the flypress when making large quantities of collars for a specific job/size, method still the same


Just as bands go 'round barrels or play music the collars go 'roud shirts and suit/sport coats. ;)
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The tooling is nothing more than a single size hardy that I made for both forming the collar and then containing it while hammering the "ears over to close it up. I was using a stackable set like what Brian has but it was a bit makeshift and kept jiggling loose. Thus I made the single size hardy. Nothing more that a square opening to hammer the hot blank collar into to for it. 3/4" gap by 1/2" deep for collaring 1/2 x 1/4 bar using 1/8" thick collars. All welded togehter, the tool that is. At first it was too tight. Maybe a bit of weld shrinkage though I had a 3/4" bar maintaining the gap. Or maybe I needed a small amount of play more than the 3/4". I shaved the gap open and now it is to loose for both making the inital collar as well as to help contain the shape and tightness of the collar while hammering over the ears. So that is the tooling I am referring to. As it sits my collars are a little loose and it is my opinion it is because my gap is too great. For a 1/4" + 1/4+ 2(1/8) collaring set up what gap should I set? Seems my 3/4" tight welded gap was a hair too small. Then again I had made the collars I was trying to close up on my sloppy jiggly tool so maybe that was part of my size mismatch. It all seems like growing pains and just getting out there and doing it until you stumble in all the little places and work out solutions. I will try what I have by closing up hot since I think that will get me the tightness I need to get these Christmas presents DONE! I'll tweak the tooling later.


The gap to set in theory is what you are using, and should work, if it is a hair too small and you put the collar on hot it should accommodate this undersize gap and become tight after you have put the 'ears' down, you can squeeze the sides together with tongs or hammer them on the bick using a flat punch for access

A couple of other things to take into consideration are ;

The materials may not be the size you are expecting and could be larger or smaller that is why I always size my fixture to the materials I am using.

The scroll and the width of the collar may also have a bearing on the fit, a tight scroll and a wide band will need a tad different fit, (wider gap in your jig) or the collar profile altering to allow for the curvature where the scrolls and collar come together.

If you put the collars on hot they are a little more forgiving for fit, and can be hammered to 'jump up' to reduce the sloppiness and they will also shrink tighter when they cool.

Good luck with your Christmas presents, and have a good one.

I also finish the collars on the mandrel, may take a tad longer but I get a better fit, crisper corners, and I also position the joint differently rather than always on the face of the work depending on the situation. Edited by John B
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I made my Collaring tool out of 3/4" by 1" bar with the same smaller bits of 3/4" by 1" welded on for the raised bit where the collar fits between. Mild steel. I was surprised that after only a little use I have actually hammered open the cap in this thickness of metal. Initally this was hammering cold so that is more stress. Might just be my welds. But sounds like I may need a new configuration and or used some steel that is hardenable. Just the bit of hammer side swipe used to bend over the ears has opened the gap. Regardless. the Hot collaring did the trick to get the Trivet / wall decorations complete. I'll try to get some pics this evening if they haven't been wrapped and mailed out...

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  • 5 years later...
On 12/11/2011 at 7:35 PM, Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver said:

Tell ya what I've learned being around Brian; he has done so much with so little for so long, that he can now do anything with nothing!

was reading a newer bit about scrolling and was trying to find the Brian Brazeal Scrolling and Collaring thread that was so awesome.   It appears it is too old and all the wonderful pics in sequence seem to no longer be available.   This is a huge loss since it was so excellent.   Then I cam across my favorite quote from IFI and here it is.  

Glenn is there any way to retrieve the pics from the thread I mentioned that Brian started?   I also had a decent follow up to that where me and Andrea made several scrolled and collared trivets all with simple tooling and a good number of pics that Brian showed me.

I still like the above quote.   And if I am not mistaken the gentleman who made it passed some time back and was also a well respected member of the community.   I never met him personally.  Perhaps he was a bit of a curmudgeon as well?   Which is fine with me!!

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We, who have forged with so little, for so long, 

can forge anything from 

absolutely nothing at all. 

 

My take. 

 

Mother Teresa gets credit for the original usually, but it was a fellow named Konstantin Josef Jirecek that penned it first. 

“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”

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aahhhh I really like that one!

                                                                                                          Littleblacksmith

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On October 24, 2011 at 7:40 PM, Borntoolate said:

Get your fire above the metal and look for the "golden flame". The golden flame heats you up fast. Cranking on the blower at temps below this, conserving fuel and not having your heat above the metal is just wasting time.

I think this may be the "heat above the metal" you are referring to.

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On 5/2/2017 at 1:16 AM, arkie said:

An ex-spurt (aka "expert") is simply a drip under pressure....

missed a part. since algebra teaches us that X is an unknown and a spurt is just a drip under pressure then an expert is nothing more then an unknown drip under pressure 

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