Germaan Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Hi All Is it in any way possible to melt and cast railroad track steel? I am talking of 130kg (286 lb) steel consisting of 200mm (8") long pieces of railroad track cast in one batch. If it is possible for the backyard foundry guy to do this I am planning on casting my own anvil. Or tell me if I am crazy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Possible to melt and recast yes. But I am pretty sure that it would cost much more than buying a brand new anvil. Casting that amount of metal would take a huge amount of fuel, and is no simple undertaking. Many people talk about this possibility and pretty much all of them fail at the idea. I only know of one person that has cast a 1 off anvil for themselves, and that person had the usage of a full factory foundry. If you are actually interested in forging you are much better off just buying a anvil, or tracking down a block of steel. The amount of time and money to cast your own anvil is HUGE. If you are just interested in casting then read some books and most of all find people to work with that already know how to cast. I'm sure there are great opportunity's in casting out around the world. If you want to forge metal then just buy a anvil, and like above find some one to work with that already knows how to forge. Having a mentor to work with will vastly improve your learning of any skill. There are just too many beginner mistakes to make with any skill for people to half to relearn them every generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 your crazy... but it can be done just not worth the work unless your a castaway with no possable way to get a anvil..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 If you get the steel free and get a perfect cast first try (LONG odds against that) you are still likely to spend more than the cost of most new anvils... MUCH more than the cost of many fine used anvils. So while doable it is NOT economically wise. Safety is also a BIG deal for a backyard foundry capable of what you envision! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Steel is a difficult metal to cast well. Leaving that aside, as others have suggested, building a foundry furnace capable of melting the amount of steel you're talking about, then providing sufficient fuel to do the job, then coming up with enough casting sand, and a way to mull it, and a way to handle the very heavy cope and drag full of many hundreds of pounds of sand, and a crucible large enough to handle that much steel (forget a cupola furnace unless you want to turn your RR track into cast iron), and a way to manipulate the crucible . . . will cost you probably many times more than a new commercial anvil of the size you want. And then you'll have to suffer through many failures until you figure out how to get it right. How many years do you want to spend making an anvil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Germaan, The Free State has just gotta be full of old Anvils- check out the scrapjards in the rural areas. I found it's best to take a picture to show scrapjard employees as to what you are looking for, then tell them that you will pay the yard R5/kg(R7=$1) and give the guy that finds one/or calls you about one a R100 finders fee on top of that. I have gotten a number of anvils that way. Gool luck Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 As you scale up casting equipment the prices zoom. Casting 100 kilo's of steel is much more difficult than casting 1 kilo. Among other things you will need systems to carry and pour not to mention keeping the mold from floating. Don't forget that to get a 100 kilo casting you will need to pour substantially more than that to deal with cooling shrinkage. You will also require expensive safety equipment to do it safely. Remember that what you pour may not be what you melted as components of the alloy can be lost in the melting process. (carbon is one) Pros can analyze the melt in progress and tweak the alloy back to what's wanted right before pouring. Note alos that the state of the steel you get out of the cast is often not a good one for an anvil---large grain and you hopefully will be able to refine it by subsequent heat treat. (Look into why they teemed small ingots when they were casting higher carbon steels in Sheffield England.) Afterwards there is still the machining and heat treat to do. So sure it can be done; but will probably cost a hundred or more times the cost of buying an anvil. If what you want to do is *smith* then it's a losing proposition. If what you want to do is cast steel, then I suggest you start small and work your way up! Finding someone who knows what they are doing to teach you can save time, money, and hospital visits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Soos die ander mense al vir jou laat weet het, jy is mal. I've fiddled around with casting aluminium and brass and found it is much more difficult than it looks. If you really have an ambition to make your own anvil, you can always make your own pattern and take it to a foundry for them to cast. The pattern also seems to be the most expensive part of casting. And then you can make lots of anvils cheaply and sell it to us for cheap. And if you really decide to do it, we want to see lots of pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germaan Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 Hi Ian Thanx for your advice. I tried all scrapmetal places in the Free State, some in the Northern Cape and also even some in the North-West province. They don't want to sell them (I don't know why) or if they are willing to sell, the anvil is in a beyond-repair state. You will also know that with the current exchange rate an anvil of that size costs around R 22 000. The foundry in Bloem is willing to cast me one in (I think) SG7 steel (I don't know how the properties of this steel compare to the steel suitable for an anvil.) This will still cost me around R 3 000 and then I also have to machine and heat treat the anvil myself. Do you have any other suggestions? Thanx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Do you have any other suggestions? Thanx depends. Are you looking to own a special "I made it myownself' anvil or are you looking to do some forging? If you're interested in forging take a look at the numerous excellent photo sequences here that show the anvil used by Brian Brazil. I know this isn't spelled exactly right but someone will follow up with a link I hope. (apologies to Brian). Brian is able to hammer out some of the nicest work on this site using a home made block of steel anvil on three legs. Take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 The foundry in Bloem is willing to cast me one in (I think) SG7 steel (I don't know how the properties of this steel compare to the steel suitable for an anvil.) If you can post the chemical composition of SG7, we can probably tell you whether it has potential as a good anvil steel. The foundry ought to be able to get you this information. But as Bob S suggested, even a piece of heavy mild steel plate can make a very functional anvil. Here is a picture of an anvil like the one of Brian Brazeal's that Bob mentioned: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 http://www.micronalloys.co.uk/Tool%20Steel%20specs.htm Looks like good stuff. Depending on the surface finish of the casting this may work very well without a lot of special tools. I suspect it can be flame hardened to a suitable depth after dressing. This can be done with an O/A torch, but on a 200kg anvil is going to take a lot of gas and a big rosebud head. Then a light surface grind to clean up, or just use it and let your work clean it. Getting a plate and making a plate anvil without a true horn is probably a better way about it. If I got this conversion right R 3000 is about $450 USD right now. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Yep, SG7 looks like it'd work pretty well for an anvil. (Nice Google-fu, Phil. I struck out. Maybe I quit too soon. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Yep, SG7 looks like it'd work pretty well for an anvil. (Nice Google-fu, Phil. I struck out. Maybe I quit too soon. ) I am surprised, your Google-Fu is usually rather strong. My search was "SG7 steel specifications", my first try ("<foo> steel specifications") SG7 pulls a whole lot of Stargate (the movie and TV show) references. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Ah. I did quit too soon. I just went with "SG7 steel." Turns out that SG7 is part of a ZIP code (or whatever the Brits call it) in England. I got lots of hits for steel fabricators and such in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Hi Germaan, What can I say, it must be your face Naw seriously, I have been lucky(and the more I practice the luckier I get) My last 3 months ago =54kg London patern(1958) for R260(/7=USD). Any Yard owned/affiliated to Reclam(our largest operator) Will not sell! Smaller orerators fear Telcom,municipal,Escom & Transnet inspectors so make sure that you don't apear to look like a cop or office jockey. Use something temporarily and watch the junkmail and farm auctions. If you are starting our 200Kg is a mother of an anvil, if you are in Jhb soon we can helh you get kit from "Tool wholesale" they sell to wholesalers only but was are registered as such. cast steel 30kg anvil @ R407(not magic but inexpensive) Fiberglass shaft handled drop forged ball pene hammers: 8oz-227g=R28.5 16oz-450g=R41.5 24oz-680g=R54.85 32oz-900g=R61.61 I also have a number of spare hydrualic and fly presses and some essentric presses that I could help you with. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Check out the Anvilfire site, look in the anvil section, gives some ideas on how to use a chunk of rail as a serviceable anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germaan Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Hi Phil Thanx for that link to the table giving the composition of SG7 steel. Yes R 3 000 is about $ 430. I don't know if this is expensive in your point of view, but for a SA newbie it is a fair amount of money. And then I also don't know much of hardening and to what degree the steel must be hardnened. Thanx to all you other guys for your valuable input. Ian, I will try the scrap metal places again trying not to look like a cop. I had one guy who told me he has five anvils, but he didn't even want to show them to me. I was curious only to see in what condition they were, but he refused solidly for me to see them. Maybe I must rather try not to look like a thief! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 My "mad money" for hobbies and the like (purchases I do not need to talk to my wife about ) is $100 per month, so it is a fair bit from that perspective. From the perspective of a brand new anvil about 200kg, that is dirt cheap. Ian is saying that good anvils can be had for little money. You need to talk to people and let them know you want to get a good anvil of usable size (about 50kg or larger) Ask your friends, coworkers, your preacher...everybody. Networking does work. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germaan Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Hi Phil OK I hear you, but can you perhaps tell me where I can get the information on hardening the table and how do one tests for the correct hardness? Remember that it is of SG7 steel. And one last thing - it is not 200kg, but only around 130kg. (See my first post on this topic) At this stage all (except maybe the preacher's wife) know that I am looking for an anvil about that size. At the moment I am using a piece of railroad track. Does anyone know what steel railroad track is made of and how the hardness of the track compares to that of a proper anvil? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 The material of RR track varies from location, age, and available materials. It usually compared favorably to a moderate quality anvil for hardness, but this is not guaranteed. Resiliency is a better measure than hardness. This is tested with a ball bearing drop test, as opposed to a penetrator. http://anvilfire.com/article.php?bodyName=/FAQs/anvil-5.htm&titleName=anvilfire.com%20Blacksmithing%20FAQs%20Anvils%20Hardness Flame hardening will create a skin of harder material, backed by the same material. The skin ends up about 1/8 inch (3mm). Effectively you heat the surface to 800C and the cold mass of the body quenches the surface. I am not however, finding a TTT graph or other piece of information for SG7. I am finding that SG7 is similar to 5150 (5150 has lower chromium), which has flame hardening specifications according to Google Books, but the page needed is not part of the preview From what ti did show, a water spray may be used to maximize hardness. Reading an incomplete article however is not entirely helpful. I really am a hobbyist, and I have not done flame hardening. I have watched it done, but that is not the same. Hopefully someone who knows more than me can help at this point. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 On 6/18/2011 at 12:41 PM, Phil Krankowski - pkrankow said: The material of RR track varies from location, age, and available materials SG7 is quite similar to 6150, but with more chromium (which will make it deeper hardening). According to these guys, 6150 can be flame hardened to 58-62 RC. I would expect you'd be able to get at least that from SG7 if it were done properly (since hardness is mainly a function of carbon content, and the two steels are the same in that respect). That's quite hard for an anvil, though Refflinghaus hardens to that range. I'm not sure what depth you could harden to, or whether having such a hard face would be more or less desirable if the hard section is relatively thin. I haven't even seen flame hardening, so I'm not qualified to give advice on how to do it. Hopefully a pro will chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germaan Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 Thank you Matt & Phil At least I know now where to start. Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 There has been a discussion on BladeForum and elsewhere discussing railroad rails as blade material as well as the rails being recycled as fence t-posts. Some months ago they showed on television a factory that was recycling railroad rails into fence t-posts. So perhaps if someone wants to try using rail material they could try forging and/or smelting old t-posts.... just a thought. As a side note, I have noticed that some t-posts seem to have been more brittle and more prone to snap off than other posts. Possibly an indication of the differences in the material that was recycled into making the posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Ask the preachers wife, no better gossip to be found (atleast in my part of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.