advise regarding hinge barrels

[FieryFurnace]

First off I tried a search on hinges and didn't turn up an answer to my questions.

So I'm doing a restoration job for some 32-inch strap hinges. I am making hinge plates for the strap hinges. I am using 1/4x10-inch flat bar for the hinge plates and each plate has to have two barrels with a gap between for the barrel on the strap hinge to fit between.
Here is a drawing that my client sent me. The drawing designates that the plate is going to be 9" tall but my steel supplier only carries 8" ad 10" in 1/4" FB so I'm going with 10".


I am wondering what is the proper way of making a good hinge barrel. Yes that's a generic question and everyone's way is the "right way." I'm open to suggestions! I don't have much experience with hinges except for some small 1x1/8-inch hinges I did the other day

First off, how do I figure up how much stock I need to form the barrel to the correct size?
I need a 1-inch INSIDE diameter barrel. So here is how I figured the stock allowance for that and I was wondering if this is the correct method.

pi x inside diameter + material thickness = stock needed
3.14 x 1" + 1/4" = 3 11/16" (aproximately)

Second question:
I am not forge welding the barrels shut. I don't think I'll be able to get that much material (1/2" x 3 1/3") up to temperature and I haven't had ANY success welding FB larger than one inch. So, should I just wrap the end of the stock around and kill it back into itself, or should I taper the end out and tuck the taper inside the hinge barrel? Which is stronger? Which is better?

I think that is all for now! Thanks in advance!

[GregDP]

I've never done this before but unless you have one of these but would the material thickness matter if you planned to taper it? I would think tapering the ends of the 3 and 11/16ths piece to the same length and and hammering it around a one inch piece of round would work. As long as they're symmetrical and all the same your in the clear right? Post some pictures once you get it worked out sounds like a fun project!

[jake pogrebinsky]

Umm...Dave,frankly,all shop drawings made by someone else(client) are suspect to me...Something here about the 1" pin is strange,seems out of proportion with thickness of stock.But,all that aside.

Math-wise,i'd just lay it out with a flexible something,a piece of belt or a lengh of lead solder.

Forge-welding something like this would only make sense if you make your bends backwards,bending clear around the pin to the back side of strap,leaving a nice long tapered scarf to weld to the back.In this case the closest to the pin mounting holes are also punched through the weld area,further reinforsing it.

Usually hinges like this are just brought around and butted to the inside of the bend(this is where the dia. of the pin gives me pause,so much more leverage...But it's just me).

To start the bend like this may not be easy:The end,having nothing past it,provides no leverage,and is hard to get to bend in a fair curve.May leave some sacrificial extra lengh,to be cut off once the bend is half way.

To a half point of arc or more i usually scroll those on the anvil,with a hammer.After the pin has some place to sit in,the vise can be useful,then the hammer again to close the circle.Both the plate "tines" will,of course,have to be kept co-axial,by use of pin,while closing.

All in all,a challenging project.Wish you the very best of luck.
Regards,Jake

[dablacksmith]

this is a massive hinge! how were the ones being replaced done? how/ why did they fail? i usually taper the ends a little and tuck um in but i dont know if its any stronger just that i like the looks better . most of the strap hinges ive done from 1/4 ive used 5/8 pins on 1 inch is kinda big i think ...have fun wit this!

[MLMartin]

If your doing a restoration job - AKA remaking some parts that have been lost,damaged,destroyed I would definitely ask and look to see if there are any originals on the building there being made for. I second the though that many people will draw something and wright a few numbers down and it wont match up at all when your down with your product. The best drawings/recordings of any ironwork I have ever seen are from blacksmiths. So if you can measure and draw, maybe even trace some of the originals yourself you will be much better off.

Now if your making all new hinges for a house you can make them most any way you like so long as they work. What ever the situation just make sure all the hinges are the same, nothing buggers up a house more in my mind than lots of parts on a house that don't match.

Also if there are originals on the house and you can get to see them then you can be almost positive about how there made just be looking at them!

Good Luck

[ThomasPowers]

What weight are these going to hold? Maybe a problem with the old ones were that they were incorrect for the load!

[FieryFurnace]

Thanks for all of the replies.

This project gets started tomorrow.

I do not know the size of the doors the finished hinges are going on.
I have the original strap hinges here. There are four, and measure 32-inches long, 3 inches wide, and vary from 1/2-1/4" thick.
The barrels on the straps were bent around and forge welded, and the pintles are about 1 inch. (I'll have to do some slight sanding on one inch to get it through.

The straps are the ONLY pieces the client has.

I'm planning on doing a test piece in standard flat bar first to determine the amount of material I need to allow. Cutting the plates is not something I am looking forward to. Wish I had a torch! :)

[Timothy Miller]

You could forge the barrels separately then forge weld them on the the plate its less work than cutting them out by hand. Forge welded hinge barrels are the easiest kind of forge weld there is in my opinion. Use the MIG to tack them on if seems to hard to do a drop the tongs weld. If you don't have a band saw or torch to cut the plate you have a big job ahead of you cutting them out by hand.

[eddie]

Thanks for all of the replies.

This project gets started tomorrow.

I do not know the size of the doors the finished hinges are going on.
I have the original strap hinges here. There are four, and measure 32-inches long, 3 inches wide, and vary from 1/2-1/4" thick.
The barrels on the straps were bent around and forge welded, and the pintles are about 1 inch. (I'll have to do some slight sanding on one inch to get it through.

The straps are the ONLY pieces the client has.

I'm planning on doing a test piece in standard flat bar first to determine the amount of material I need to allow. Cutting the plates is not something I am looking forward to. Wish I had a torch!

Dave
chisel cut the bar to length and forge weld. Then make a drift that is 1/16 th larger than your pin and drive it home. You can also drill out the barrels for a correct fit

[FieryFurnace]

Southshore:
I've got a band saw to cut the straight cuts and then I'm going to use a reciprocating saw to cut the sideways one. Best method I could think up! Still wish I had a torch though!

I don't know about forging the barrels separate. I've had good success forge welding and have tested many of my welds and they held strong. I've even got some tongs that I forge welded handles to and they are plenty stout. However, forge welding hinge barrels as a separate piece and putting those hinges up to hold someone else's door, makes me a bit nervous. I've been welding over a year now but I just don't know about that yet!

Mr. Eddie: Long time no talk! It's good to hear from you again.
I like the idea of the drift. I think from all this talk, if I can get my test piece to weld, I'm going to try to weld the hinge barrels shut. I do think it looks better and more finished, and it will match the original set. However, will your suggestion work since there are two hinge barrels there? There won't be any way to support the barrel while the drift is being driven through. Suggestions on how to surmount this difficulty?

[Timothy Miller]

I wouldn't worry about your forge welds failing If you can't bust the barrel off in a vise the hinge wont break. Most likely those hinges originally hung on pintles not as butt hinges. This drawing looks like the work or a carpenter who is tiring to use the old strap hinges work in a way they were never intended to be used. Because he has never used anything but surface mount hinges. Unless they were some one off custom job done by a semi trained frontier blacksmith who made up his own ways of doing things or an architect dictated that they be made this way. I have found a lot of contractors try to re-engineer forged hardware to suit modern carpentry methods and in the process make your life miserable. They are wary of pintles because they are not used to them. I can recall having to convince at least 4 or 5 carpenters not to try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to strap hinges. Most likely the barrels are so big because they are worn out. They probally started out life at 3/4" because you say 1" really wont pass. If you plan to cut them out will you drill holes in the corners to insert the reciprocating saw blade?

[bruce wilcock]

roll the hinge plate full length to take the pin , then cut the center slot out ,two hack saw cuts or angle grinder ,then with a hot set cut the center out slope your set so to make a neat fit for the strap ,made all the hinges for drop down rail waggon sides by cutting the middle out after forging the barrel ,then we moved to welding a tube onto a plate then again cutting the middle out.

[Dave Hammer]

Is this a large enough job to buy the torch and add it to the cost to the customer, or at least part of the cost? Rent the tanks. If it saves hours, it may even save the customer money.

[FieryFurnace]

Southshore:
Maybe you're right, could be worn down a bit!
I think it was the "busting the barrel off in the vise" that worried me! LOL Well, hey! I'm going to give it a try! I may bury myself in the process, but no one will accuse me of being a coward!

I was going to try a straight dive cut to save the drill bits, but I don't know how well that will work. It may actually save time to drill instead of trying to dive.

I'm not the expert on hinges. The biggest thing I've hung is a 36 inch door on mass production hinges from Lowes. Do you really think that a 9" hinge plate with five 3/8x3-inch lags in it won't hold? I know tht depends on the size of the door but I know the doors have to be at least 36 inches, and they are going on a barn/shop so they are probably about 8-feet tall.

Lesson learned: Ask the client for the door size and then adjust his requirements accordingly BEFORE purchasing materials!

I appreciate your advice thus far! I couldn't do this stuff if it wasn't for guys like you helping me through the grey areas!

Bruce:
That's not a bad idea about rolling the hole thing! And then I could use Mr. Eddie's drift through idea before cutting out the center. I know I could get that much metal hot and bend the barrel around but I wonder about forge welding aproximately 3"x9". Would something like that be ok to weld in two or three heats?
I just haven't had a chance to push my forge that far yet.


Dave:
Hmmmmm I'm just adding some figure here and it just isn't working. This client is already on the edge of "spending too much money" so I can't tack anything else on, much less an OA rig! I'd lose the job.


A good LARGE cutting torch is on my "urgent needs" list. I think it got bumped down a notch though as I broke my vise the other day because it wasn't big enough for the job. I fixed it in short order, but I need a larger vise and I think that might be a higher priority than the OA. I don't know! "Nuther subject for a-nuther day." :)

[David Einhorn]

If you are going to make 32 large hinges, I would humbly suggest investing the time making a Donald Streeter styled eye-bending jig.

http://www.farwestforge.com/Forum/bsgview.php?photo=1282&cat=T&by=

http://www.forgemagic.com/bsgview.php?photo=3640&cat=&by=Rich%20Waugh

Streeter also wrote a book that includes a description of his jig and how to use it.

[Don A]

Dave,

On a much smaller hinge, I would roll the entire length, the do the cut-out, but with the size and thickness you're dealing with, you will definitely do your cuts before rolling.

Before you roll them, you can lay them face-down at the very edge and forge a 45 degree angle in the ends. If you get your lengths right, these shoud tuck in nicely when your rolls come full circle.

I have found a round bottom swage helpful in forming the barrels as well as pulling them tight over the edge and forging from the side... basically just working them into a good round shape. Much of this is best done with the drift in place. Be sure your drift has a good taper on both ends or you'll get it stuck.

Also, be sure you have a long drift or rod to make sure both barrels line up. And as said above, you can go slightly under-sized and then give them a final pass with a drill. This leaves good, clean interior surfaces.

Good luck with this. I look forward to seeing your progress.

Don

[FieryFurnace]

My internet was down nearly all of yesterday. Yesterday was an.....how do I put that.....ummmm interesting day in the shop! I started out with some flat bar to do a test piece. I blew that one but did determine I needed a couple of tools. so I made a mandrel for the hardy hole. Fortunately I just picked up a piece of 1 1/4" square bar the other day so making the hardy tool wasn't a big deal. (my hardy hole is 1 1/4")




Next I figured I needed a drift like Mr. Eddie suggested. I made this one and it works great.


Here are a couple test pieces.




Yesterday I cut out one of the plates and forged the barrels but didn't get to the weld.

I'll probably start a new thread that covers the work. I think I might have the hang of it now.

Here is one just for fun. Finished this yesterday. It is an oven door for an outside oven that is in a stone hearth next to a fireplace. The oven is operated by shoveling coals from the fire into the oven. (Yes I used the mig alot on this one!) I made the hinges on this but 1"x1/8" FB is a bit different!



P.S. the frame on the door is for a ceramic piece to slide into.

[Timothy Miller]

good job

[jake pogrebinsky]

Right on,Dave.

In the way that you made those,by bending the tab back and welding,you can further improve the fit/appearance by forging in a square corner first.Then,as you're rolling the barrel,that corner may even become sharper than sq.,and fit the curve even more.
All the best.

[John B]

My internet was down nearly all of yesterday. Yesterday was an.....how do I put that.....ummmm interesting day in the shop! I started out with some flat bar Here are a couple test pieces.




Yesterday I cut out one of the plates and forged the barrels but didn't get to the weld.

I'll probably start a new thread that covers the work. I think I might have the hang of it now.

Hi Dave, don't forget to preform the turned end convex before you roll the eye, this will alleviate the hourglass effect at the centre of the barrels when you turn them

[FieryFurnace]

I hate to admit it but I chickened out of the forge-weld. Ok ok ok! Hold on....just a minute!

I did TRY!

It took 20 minutes to get the section up to welding heat and I would have had to take a second heat to blend the weld to my satisfaction. That's a lot of time PER BARREL! If I had known in advance maybe I could have figured that into my quoted price, but as-is, that is too much time. (Not to mention I think I roasted the first layer of my face off! )

So I remeasured stock and now I'm just wrapping the barrels around and killing them back into the front of the plate with a tapered end.

This is a big dissapointment for me because I really wanted to forge weld the plates. I have a problem believing the forge is the weak link. I have a 12x14 firepot that is 3 1/2" deep and it gets hot. It achieved the heat needed but it just took too much time. Myabe it's the blower or maybe it me...the fire manager! Maybe that's how long it takes to heat that much metal up. If so, lesson learned and I know better now. That's another difficulty! A lot of this stuff I'm just learning as I go. Estimating time and materials acurately and then pricing off of that estimate is something that is pretty new for me.
My experience with pricing has been like this:

Customer: "Ehhh how much for the dinner bell?"
Me: "Fifteen dollars!" (while thinking "look at the tag dummy")
Customer: "Ohhhhh could you take $10?"
Me: "Ha! No!"

So I'm still getting the hang of timing and pricing.

In the mean time, I am pleased with the way the rolled hinge barrels are turning out. They look good despite their not being forge welded and the time it takes to make them is more along the lines of my estimate.

Thanks for all of the help guys. I should have some pictures tomorrow!

[Francis Trez Cole]

That is why when I do a restoration project I figure the price of the material and then make one and then charge by the hour. after they have payed for the material. also bring other options to the table as well. Try to avoid sticker shock My dad said if you have to ask the price you can't afford it.

[thingmaker3]

Customer: "Ehhh how much for the dinner bell?"
Me: "Fifteen dollars!" (while thinking "look at the tag dummy")
Customer: "Ohhhhh could you take $10?"

Me: Sure! I'll take $10. Or even $5. But if you want the dinner bell you'll need to give me $15.

[sfDuck]

Nice real nice