First punch, almost done, but no cigar...

[Alan DuBoff]

No need for any info here.

[Ed Thomas]

Alan: This looks like an excellent candidate for the critique section. :)

[ThomasPowers]

You need to hold the piece at an angle to the face of the anvil instead of flat on it if you want to get both sides tapered while hitting on one.

Also you should be able to shift the "point" to the middle after tapering on only one side to get a two sided taper.

Remember ugly does not mean useless. One of my first projects was a chisel---it came out real ugly but I told myself I would replace it when it broke and more than 25 years later after using it to dig nails/wire/rocks out of turning stock the blasted thing is still working great and looking ugly...

[Hofi]

ALAN
IF U WAnt to forge a pouint or a punch u have to hold the steel on the anvil with your managing hand when the angle of the steel to the anvil is half of the futuer angle , means if the futuer angle is 5 degrees u hold it 2,5 degrees from the anvil . doing that and whil forging u turn the managing hand 90 degrees back and force all the way down to the end of the taper u will get a tapered squer.
u have to decide before what will be the OD of the punch. we know that the squer i volume is having 22,3 % more matirial then the round so u must forge it in a way that the squer on the end of the punch will be smaller accordingly then when u forge thw corners to 8 then to 16 and rounr it with the hammer u get the pland OD. USUALLY I forge it a bit bigger and the grind on the belt grinder to the finel OD. HOPE IT WILL HELP.
HOFI

[Strine]

That you misinterpreted the instruction for a 3" taper notwithstanding (I sympathise with your reason), in aiming for a particular tapered length I taper only the tip to the desired size. I may only achieve a third of the desired tapered length in the first heat. In subsequent heats I take the taper back until I meet the specified length 'on the plan'. This method was explained to me when I tried to taper a six foot length from 3/4" down to 1/4" and it worked a treat.

As for only hitting on two sides I agree with the lifting of the "managing hand" (I like the term Hofi) but if only one sde is touching the anvil it will lose heat quicker and therefor not react the same as the side getting belted with the hammer. It pays to at least check the far side to see how its going occasionally

[Hofi]

STRIN
U MISSUNDERSTOOD ME!!!
not eassy to explain the system with a mail not only because of my poor english.
ican forge 8-10'' long point on 5/16-3/8'' round or squer steel in one heat!
I NEVER STSRT A TAPER OR A POINT WITH THE FAR END (THE POINT) I ALWAYS START IN SIDE AND MOVE FORGING TO THE POINT.
THE LENGTH OF THE POINT IS VERY EASSY TO CALCULATE BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT THE RATIO BETWEEN THE CONE IN THE CILINDER AND THE CILINDER IS 1/3 TO 2/3 IF I WANT TO FOEGE A 6'' PONT I LEAN THE STEEL ON THE FAR A BIT ROUNDED ADGE OF THE ANVIL 2'' IN THE AIR IN THE ''RIGHT ANGLE AND FORGE WITH THE HAMMER WHEN THE HAMMER IS A 1/3 OUT OFF THE ADGE OF THE ANVIL AND TURN THE STEEL 90 DEGREES EVERY 2 SWINGS OF THE HAMMER TO THE SAME DITECTION AND PULL THE STEEL TO MY SIDE EVERY TURN IN THIS SYSTEM THE ANVIL AND THE ''MANAGING ''HAND ARE MAKING THE ''JOB''. BY GORGING THIS WAY U DUBLE FULLER THE STEEL U MOOVE THE METAL FAST CREAT HIGH FRICTION AND HEAT AND U FINISH THE 6-7-8 10'' POINT IN ONE HEAT!!!!
SOME TIMES U CAN NOT GO TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ANVIL AND U MUST FORGE THE POINT ''ON'' THE ANVILE FACE, THEN COMES SYSTEM NO 2
AGAIN I START FROM THE INNER SIDE AND NOT FROM THE POINT.
LET US SAY I WANT TO FORGE A 41/2'' LONG POINT I FORGE WITH THE HAMMER TILTED 40 DEGREES OUT 11/2'' FROM THE END OF THE STEEL AND FORGE IN THIS PLACE AND SOME THING VERY INTERESTING IS HAPPENIN BECAUSE OF THE REACTION THE FAR END OF THE STEEL WIL COME UP (RAISE) from the anvil 1/32'' and when u forge again after u turend it 90 degrees it will rais again and so on until u finish the point or the ''punch'' in this way also the steel n e v e rb tuches the anvil and u can forge for a long time creat and priserv the heat for a long time.
hope it is clear this time
HOFI

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for any input here.;)

[Sam Salvati]

Looks great Alan, I made my first one much stubbier pointed. I find the stubby ones don't deform as much if they get a little heater from the punch.

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[Strine]

Good on ya Hofi. (Strine for 'may good blessings be upon you'). No doubt your method works fine which is great. I didn't misunderstand, I just posted my method. I thought that was the idea?

By the way, my method works great too and enables me to forge an 8-"10" taper from 5/16 to 3/8 in one heat as well. An advantage of the method is there is no need to calculate anything...just whack the thing 'till you get the right length.

Each to his own eh?

[Hofi]

Hello Strine
U Wrote In The First Paragraf '' On The First Heat I Forge The Point And ''maybe'' Achive A Theired Of The Taper. Means That U Put It More Times In The Fire To Finish . Again May Be I Did Not Understand.
Because I Learn All My Life I ''ll Love To Learn Your System ,taech Me And Show Me.if It Is Better And Eassier Than Mine I''ll Go With It And Teach It To The Others.
U Realy Think That I ''calculate '' All The Time It Was Only To Explain The Simplicity Of The System The Moment U Understand It It Goes Outomaticaly.
The Phrase - Each To His Own Eh ? - Privents U From Learning Something New. And To My Opimion It Is Not A Nice Way To Put It
I Want To Learn Your System Do U Want To Learn Mine ?
Hofi

[Glenn]

Both styles would be good material for a blueprint. :)

[Hofi]

Glenn
Allready Gave In The 1000 Hofi Bp About The Short Point. For The Long Point Will Send After I Return From Chaina

[Strine]

No blueprint from me Glenn. The language barrier aside I note the chastisement from the previous post. I am truly sorry I made an offering in trying to give Alan another option and will not make the same mistake again.

Additionally I will not be badgered into adopting new methods if the one I use works just fine and will not be lectured to about my willingness or capacity, or lack thereof, to learn. Nothing prevents me from learning exept the number of brain cells I lose each day. I will consider expert advice along with all the other expert advice I get as I'm sure Alan is doing.

Strike me pink, we are talking about tapering a bit of stuff. Get off the grass.

I say again. Each to his own. And again. Each to his own. And again... no, that would be boring. My 'own' is very flexible and if it starts to look like your 'own' stick your chest out and polish your fingernails.

For the uninitiated the term "Each to his own" merely says that we are all different. Thank God for that. We all have our own beliefs, our own favourite music, our own method of skinning rabbits, oh, and our own way of bashing up hot metal. And just as a lot of people like Metallica or the Rolling Stones while others prefer Burl Ives or Mary Black a lot of people forge one way while others forge another. (Celtic generally for me anytime) In the end everybody makes good music in someones eyes.

But then all of a sudden Metallica come up with a rendition of 'Whiskey in the Jar'. Mmmmm I think, they can't be that bad after all!

Do I want to learn Hofi's 'sytem' of making a taper in 3/8 stuff in one heat? Not particularly, after the development of this thread.

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for any input here.:p

[Scott Thomas]

Hello,

With my respects to both Mr. Hofi and Strine, you both are reaching the same objective, just in slightly different ways. Just variations on the same tune.

The MAIN objective here was to utilize three different methods of drawing out a piece of steel using hand hammering without a striker.

First, the most aggressive: Using the offside of the anvil face to in combination with an offset hammer blow (Some call it a half face hammer blow) which is just a form of fullering the steel. Deep indentations = lots of metal movement in a lateral 180 deg. direction. This is rough forging.

Less aggressive: Forging the steel on the horn with flat hammer blows. This starts to smooth out the deep indentations while still stretching (Displacing) the steel yet giving more control of the final dimension desired.

Least aggressive: Flat hammer blows on the anvil face (Means using the flat of the hammer against the flat of the anvil even though you may be hammering at an angle on the work, it is still flat face to flat face). This is finish forging, and should give you the final dimension desired with little or no grinding needed.

NOW, as to how you start you taper depends on you.

Some folks are great at spatial relationships and estimation of stock size needed. They can start their taper wherever they want and end up with the required final dimension.

Some folks are not, and they start by defining the end of the taper first and then working it back along the stock, blending it into the previous section until the final dimension is reached.

Sometimes you need to be very specific about the amount of stock you are using, how much stock you need and the exact final dimension. Here is where the mathematics is most useful. Some smiths can do this in their head, some have to use a measuring stick and a calculator.

No matter how you start, the important thing is to utilize the proper technique (such one of more of the three listed above) of drawing out the steel to achieve your objective.

As a side note, blacksmithing has been around for over 2500 YEARS OR MORE, so nothing we do today in regards of hand hammering technique is NEW or

[Strine]

I'm sorry Alan, I will do all in my power to keep the thread alive. I was offended and had to speak up. Scott, you put it beautifully. You say you are a teacher of blacksmithing. It seems to me from your last post you are a very good one. Keep up the good work.

Alan, on a general note, you knocked up some sort of object recently which by all accounts did not meet the desired specifications. By jingoes (ie aghast and alas) who hasn't had that happen before. But there is no mistaking the fact everytime you hit the metal something happened. I mean everytime. Not occasionally does the metal change shape. It changes shape everytime. As you have found out sometimes the result is wrong. That's unfortunate but what you have just done with any single swing of the hammer is discover exactly the right technique for a project swimming around in your head, waiting to be realeased. Don't quote me but I think it was JPH who said here "Experience is what you get when you didn't want to get it" You can never get too much experience.

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for any input here.;)

[Hofi]

Strine - If You Where Offended By Me I Appologise And Say Sorry!!!!
I Did Not Mean To Offend It Was Only A Profetional Discotion And A Try To Maybe Halp Alann. Big Sory Again.

Scott- I Agree With Most Of The Things You Pointed And Being A Teacher Too There Are Many Other Point I Want To Add.
Flying To Night To Chaina For 10 Days I Do Not Have The Time Now To Do It .i Want Very Much To Cotinue The Discution With You.
All The Best For You Both
Uri Hofi

[Strine]

No worries Hofi, apology accepted graciously.

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for any input here.