a short taper video

[FieryFurnace]

taper video


I actually made this video for a blog I'm working on, but I thought I'd share. Critique my taper method!

[dablacksmith]

not bad .. ya might get someone to run the camera and zoom in on what the hammer is doing . its hard to get a good camera on red hot metal and actually see whats going on...

[Marksnagel]

Nice video Dave. Thanks for posting it.

Mark<><

[firebug]

I like the fact that you are working off of the far side of the anvil, allowing the steel that is not being worked at the time to hang off in the air. This keeps the anvil from becoming a heat sink and drawing out your heat. I also like the fact that you were able to finish the taper in one heat. I have seen smiths hammer in the middle of the anvil allowing the heat to be drawn out and taking two or three heats to make a taper. The only thing I would try if I were you would be to not rotate your managing hand every strike. You can strike at least twice before turning the managing hand 90 degrees. On thicker material you can strike three times sometimes. But I have to say that you have very good "hammer hand-managing hand" coordination. The only time I will rotate each strike like you do is when I am getting close to the end and the material is getting thin. To strike twice may move too much material before I am able to even it out in the other side. Here is a hint. Lets say that you want a 6 nch taper all you need to do is allow one third the length of the desired finished taper to hang off of the far side of the anvil, which in this case would be two inches. If you allow two inches to hang off of the anvil and hammer a taper to a point you will end up with a 6 inch taper.

[MLMartin]

Hey dave, you could get a lot more work done by taking the steel right out of the fire and start forging on it, no need to brush the scale off, with as much shape changing as your doing im sure all the scale would fall off while hammering, I also like to use the horn for drawing quickly, as it acts as a fuller while i forge over it

[FieryFurnace]

Ok some interesting replies!

Dablacksmith:
Our crazy camera will not zoom during a video! I fooled with it for probably 30 minutes and it just doesn't zoom while recording. This video is more for a blog I'm working on and not an instructional video on tapering. I do have a good instructional video on tapering but I've had difficulty uploading it!

Firebug:
Working off the far side is a habit I was fortunate enough to be taught early on.
Now don't take me wrong here! I've only been smithing for five years now so you probably can claim more experience than me.
I would, right off, dissagree about not rotating between every blow. I used to do several blows a side before rotating, and when I switched it increased my efficiency in moving the steel greatly. I went from two heats for a 4-inch taper in 3/8" round, to a single heat, overnight.

Now this is an idea for discussion, not a dogmatic opinion.

It seems to me that by using a "hit-rotate" method you are guiding the steel with more efficiency. Think of it this way! If you hit numerous times before rotation you are not only pushing the metal out in length, but you are widening the metal as well. Therefore, when you rotate, you have to hammer the metal back to it's original width before beginning to move the metal in the desired direction.
By hitting only once and then rotating you keep the metal more square and thus putting all the movement lengthways and not widthways.

Also, by hitting the metal and then rotating, you keep the metal moving constantly in different directions, back and forth, and thus create more friction. (This is just my theory, and someone who has more knowledge in metalurgy might be able to blow it out of the water!) If this is true, then I am creating more heat, thus prolonging anvil time.

I don't doubt that the larger the material, the less this advantage becomes. However, I would think maybe 3/4 or 1 inch would be the cut-off point.

Like I said, I'm not dogmatic about any of this and I am completely open to discussion here.

Thanks for the measurement tip! I'll try that out!

MIMartin 15:
I don't know much about wen to brush and when not to. I've been hearing a lot of professional smiths who always brush first thing.

I'd like everyone's imput here as well!

I've seen a lot of people use the horn and heard it talked of highly for tapering. I've just never cared for it! However, since it has been so often reccomended, it is time I start trying that more seriously!

[cavala]

Use the horn you're wasting energy.

[firebug]

Furnace,

While it is true that the metal will move in all directions when it is struck with the hammer, by using the edge of the anvil and not the face, and by tilting the hammer you are hitting the steel and pinching it out and away from the hammer. The edge of the hammer and anvil are pushing the metal out the path of least resistance, the metal does not want to travel down the length of the anvil and hammer face, it tends to push out and away. This is even more agressive than using the horn to taper. By using the edge of the anvil and tilting the hammer and using the egde of it you are creating a smaller area than the horn to translate the energy into work on the steel. By concentrating the energy into a smaller area you can move more metal and create heat druing the process. Like anything you can not take it to the extreme or you end up cutting the steel instead.

Whether to brush or not can often be a matter of opinion and what you want the final outcome to be. If you brush often you will have a much cleaner end result and you will not drive the scale into your work.

As far as rotating each strike that is going to be a matter of opinion I guess. My opinion is that by rotating every other strike you are only rotating half as much, which means less work for the managing hand as well as half the chances to make a bad strike because the metal was not at an exact 90. I have done it both ways and for me it made no difference in the speed at which I created a taper. But that is one of those things that you will have to decide for yourself.

[HWHII]

Dave, Just out of curiosity, I notice you prefere your horn to the right being a right hander. I have seen lots do this. I prefere it to the left being a right hander. Why do you like this?

[John B]

Hi Dave, to quote you,

I don't know much about wen to brush and when not to. I've been hearing a lot of professional smiths who always brush first thing.

My reply would be as and when required, if you have scale or clinker on when you pull out of the fire, wire brush it off otherwise it goes onto the anvil face and gets driven into your workpiece.

If you have good fire management skill you will find your work should be reasonably clean when coming out of the fire, a quick wipe over with the wirebrush should be adequate, My opinion for what it is worth is that it is a good habit to get into.


To Harold, The preference for a right handed facing bick for a right hander enables the use of a hardy and leaving it in situ without risking damaging your hammer hand if you are on a production run, and the anvil is workable in both directions. Basically its a personal choice.

[FieryFurnace]

Firebug:
I agree with the "edge of the anvil" use over the "horn taper" method. It's just what I've developed the habit of doing, although I would like to practice up on horn tapering too!

I could definately go with the "half as much chance of hitting off the 90 degree angle" theory! If nothing else I will give the double and triple blow per side method, a try!



I keep the horn to the right for two reasons!
#1 is already stated ! The horn on the right places the hardy on the left and WAY away from the hammer hand so that you CAN leave the hardy in during a production run or to do some dress up work imediately after a cut, without wasting time removing the hardy!

I STILL RECCOMEND THAT EVERYONE GETS IN THE HABIT OF REMOVING THE HARDY RIGHT AFTER THE HEAT IS FINISHED, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THE HORN IS FACING!

#2 is when working on the horn to bend hooks or scrolls, your hammer arm and hand can work all the way around the horn without the anvil face getting in the way or the anvil body obstructing your view!

[dbrandow]

I don't do it myself, but rotating ninety degrees after every strike is apparently a technique some notable smiths do use, including Toby Hickman and Mark Aspery, from what I'm lead to believe.

[JNewman]

I find I get much faster drawing using the edge of the anvil as a fuller rather than the horn, most of the mass of the anvil is under the middle of the anvil. I will often rough out a taper by lifting the steel slightly more and BITING on the well radiused back corner. That being a smaller radius draws VERY aggresively but you have to be careful not to bite too deeply. It does not look as pretty half way through but is much less work. I rarely wirebrush before forging except for some finishing work or sometimes if forging into a die. But why don't you try drawing out two tapers pre brush one and don't on the other and see whether you see much difference and which you like better if there is a difference. If you decide to brush why don't you fasten a brush to your forge or anvil stand, if there is a piece of coke, clinker or nasty piece of scale on something I take out of the fire I will quickly scrape it off on the edge of the forge. Setting the brush down and picking up your hammer is definitely wasting heat.

[IRON FIST RICH]

thank you for the video and all the good discussion. it helps us rookies very much

[LDW]

I can't stand it amymore I just have to put my 2 cents in. After working with Brian for the last year one thing I have definitely learned is drawing out tapers as efficiently as I can. What I have learned is kind of a combination of the two elements you guys have described. I wish you all would try this one time, Brian has shown this to people and I have seen them ignore him and go back to beating on the flat surface of the anvil with the flat die of the hammer. If you put the metal over the far edge, the way you were both talking about, and hit with a half hammer face blow, meaning to strike the center of the hammer face at the edge of the anvil, this will create a lump, (using the round face will be more aggressive than using the flat face but both are very efficient) if you turn the steel 90 degrees and bring it closer to you and strike it again you will create another lump, now if you keep turning it again and again in the same direction 90 degrees and bring it towards you it will continue creating lumps and reducing in size with each rotation. When you need to reduce the size more than what you can achieve in one hit you have no choice but to hit it more than once. This point will change with different individuals depending on how heavy their hammer is and how high they lift it.
Brian has showed me how to make drifts, we use this technique and do a little at a time making sure after you have reduced the size with each heat you finish up by planishing at the lower heat and move on to reducing more with each heat. I have watched Brian draw a taper that was 10 to 12 inches long all the way down to 1/4" starting with 1 1/4 inch round in three heats. It takes me more heats but to be some of the heaviest hand forging I have ever done I made my second taper for a drift in about thirty minutes with a 3 and 1/2 pound hammer, starting with 1 1/8 inch 1045. Fiery furnace I think you did great making that taper in one heat. You are way ahead of a lot of people. As you said this is a discussion and I am trying to put into words what I have experienced. Maybe we can get Brian to do one of his one heat videos on this. This is getting down to the nitty gritty of things, that just goes to prove the more you learn, the more you can learn. again as Brian says, use the right dies and it will practically make itself. This is a wonderful thread, thanks FieryFurnace.

[dablacksmith]

as far as the brushing thing i no longer do that unless some clinker is on the item ... the scale comes off as you hammer and ive gone to tumbleing almost everything so scale is removed in the tumbleing process ... also at the heat your at you will build more scale as your forgeing so kinda a waste of time ..if your going to say curl the end after on the next heat i might brush then curl the end brush again and call it done .. ide save the brushing for the last heat after the elements have been forged (just my opinion) .. for production the tumbler is the way to go .. it saves the time spent brushing and removes the scale and any sharp edges makes the item nicer without takeing away the hammer marks .it also saves time amd makes finishing easy ..hard to do at a demo tho...

[Marksnagel]

This has been a great thread. The opinions and guidance that has been offered is great. Just reading the replies has taught me a lot. I have seen several things that I can improve on and several things that I should stop doing.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

Dave, thanks for starting this and posting your video.

Mark<><

[eric sprado]

Hi: Just to concur with John and LDW. As an old smith,saving energy is paramount for me! It should have been when I was pounding out horseshoes for long days for years. Use SOME surface of your anvil as a fuller and get that metal stretched out easier! I also use the well rounded far side of my anvil. I LOVE my cross pein hammer!! I use it on the top while the bottom side is against the anvil edge and the metal stretches quickly.Wish I had your energy! Your work is really nice and I see that you have good hammer control.. Show us some of the nice things you make!!!!!! thanks, Eric Sprado

[KYBOY]

Ive always used the edge of the anvil for tapering. I start on the end of the stock and taper back. Stock held at an angle to the anvil face, not flat. Seems like less work and I never had problems doing it in heat. Unless of course its a real long taper.

[FieryFurnace]

I do use the far edge of the anvil and a slightly canted swing on my hammer so that the edge of the hammer is contacting the steel, not the flat face.
I agree with the theory that the edge of the anvil is better than the horn for the reasons already listed......namely; more mass, and sharper fuller.

I do not use the peen side of my cross peen to taper. I believe it was Mr. Greg Price that said you have five peens on a square-head cross peen hammer. The "real" peen, and each edge of the square head. I have a round head hammer, but the idea is still the same.

Right now I am using a three-pound, short handled sledge hammer from Sears. They can also be found at Tractor Supply Company and cost around $12.00. They are well ballanced and handle alot like a Hofi hammer in my opinion. Awesome little hammer for general forge work! (Though I wouldn't mind using a Hofi instead....those hammers are GREAT! I had a guy loan me a three pound Hofi at a craft fair for a couple of hours! SWEET!)

LDW:
You put forth an interesting idea and I think I understand your explination. However, a video by either Mr. Brian or yourself would be GREAT! Make sure you do it slow though so we rookies can see what's going on! LOL


A word of advice for those of you who wish to get into the habit of using the edge of the anvil or the horn as a fuller and trying to rotate between blows:
These techniques take TIME to learn, and you probably won't get it down in a day. I've been using the rotatng and the edge of the anvil methods for at least a year and I still don't have it perfect. I still bugger tapers up and I still get off on the diamond somtimes. IT HAPPENS, don't give up or get discouraged.
Using the edge of the anvil or the horn as a fuller is difficult as it is easy to get too thin too quick! Just toss it and try again, but don't give up! These are methods that will improve efficiency and decrease energy use!


I agree with everyone! I posted my video because I didn't have anything else to do at the time. I'm glad I did, as it has been a very productive discussion so far!

[Spears]

Use the horn you're wasting energy.

It looked to me like he had plenty of energy left as he walked away. A good radius on the anvils corner at the far edge in the anvils center of mass should be able to provide like the horn does. Not an argument nor any pursuit of one. I'm just honest enough to admit I'm so darn out of shape and my technique so unpracticed I couldn't come close to matching that right now. Makes me wonder how many people on this forum CAN actually do that. Not pointing or taking a shot at you Cavala, but sometimes there tends to be a lot of criticism come out of the woodwork on these forums. Maybe some of those "armchair" blacksmiths might stand up and show us all how it's really done. As for me I'm going home at least a couple of nights this week and practice hammering because it looks to me like the benchmark is quite a ways out. Thanks for the video Dave. Spears.

[firebug]

I would like to add a few things here. I was fortunate enough to be taught and am still being taught by Uri Hofi in both my hand hammer and air hammer techniques. There are several ways to draw out a point some more aggressive than others. Which one you use depends on what kind of point and how fast you are trying to work. Also, there are very small changes in the way the hammer is used with the anvil that can make a very big difference on how the metal moves. Some of these changes in hammer position are subtle and hard to understand in the begining.

One of the most agressive ways to draw a point is to first calculate the length of the finished point you desire to create. Lets say it is 9 inches. Take 9 inches and divide it by 3, 3 is constant, and that gives you 3 inches. When you divide the desired finished length by 3 you get the amount that should be hung over the far edge of the anvil, in this case it is 3". Heat the last 6 inches of lets say 1/2" square bar. Hang the required 3 inches off of the far side of the anvil on the edge with the radius on it. Start hammering. On 1/2" I would strike twice then rotate 90 degrees towards the front of the anvil, usually the horn for right hand smiths. Then strike twice again and rotate another 90 degrees. Each time you rotate 90 degrees you pull a little more of the bar onto the anvil. Strike twice again and rotate and pull more onto the anvil. The biggest difference here is you are not rotating 90 degrees back and forth, only forward. You are striking with about a third of the hammer face off of the edge of the anvil. The reason you must rotate forward is because you are creating a blob of metal which drops down the side of the anvil. By always rotating to the front you are never trying to pull this blob onto the edge of the anvil getting it hung up. This allows you to more smoothly pull the material onto the anvil. Once you have thinned the material down you may need to only stike once then turn. This takes practice because you have to see the shape of the point and how it is flowing before you actually finish it. Once you perfect this method you can accurately create very long points in one heat.

Some of the reasons this works so well is because you are hanging the hot steel over the edge of the anvil and allowing the air to insulate it as well as not allowing the face of the anvil to wick the heat out. Also, you are moving the metal so fast that you are working faster and creating heat as the metal moves.


Remember your managing hand. You want to hold it up at an angle that is half of the angle of the finished point.

[cavala]

It looked to me like he had plenty of energy left as he walked away. A good radius on the anvils corner at the far edge in the anvils center of mass should be able to provide like the horn does. Not an argument nor any pursuit of one. I'm just honest enough to admit I'm so darn out of shape and my technique so unpracticed I couldn't come close to matching that right now. Makes me wonder how many people on this forum CAN actually do that. Not pointing or taking a shot at you Cavala, but sometimes there tends to be a lot of criticism come out of the woodwork on these forums. Maybe some of those "armchair" blacksmiths might stand up and show us all how it's really done. As for me I'm going home at least a couple of nights this week and practice hammering because it looks to me like the benchmark is quite a ways out. Thanks for the video Dave. Spears.

I've been doing this work for over ten years not because it was a hobby or I thought it was cool but because I needed a job. When you do this type of work 60+ hours a week you'll try to be as efficient as possible.
When you put yourself on a public forum that's what you get critiques and compliments. I don't know why your getting butt hurt. I said nothing insulting I just stated an opinion

[FieryFurnace]

Firebug:


I briefly tried that rolling all the way around yesterday.....ehem! That was a disaster! LOL That is going to take some practice, but it seems like a neat idea.