125Amp Sub Panel (electrical help-me)

[Fosterob]

You said something earlier about heat and air conditioning. Is that for the house or garage? Drywall offers a little fire protection and also helps keep the noise in. The main reason I would go with the drywall (5/8" or 3/4") is fire protection by covering all the little spaces sparks can get caught in and smolder, sound insulation and cleanliness. The thicker drywall is a lot stronger than 1/2". Insulating behind it also to help with noise at least if you are not worried about temperature. You dont have to cover the screws or nails so you can still see the studs if that makes it easy to hang things. Do the electrical all before insulation and drywall. For more fire protection and really easy clean up glue thin sheet metal to the drywall with spray glue.
Rob

[Mainely,Bob]

I would advise against drywall.Remember you are going to be dancing with metal in the shop.Something that dents or chips slightly beats something that ends up with holes at the drop of a hat.
They make fireproof plywood or you can treat your own ply or OSB rather easily.If you`re going to be doing a lot of cutting or other processes involving lots of sparks you may want to consider making the lower half of the walls sheet metal and the upper half ply or OSB to hang things off of.
Cleats around the top of the walls make it easy to hang tool boards that you can move individually to anywhere that is handy within the shop.
As far as outlets go.This isn`t the house don`t put the outlets down low.Make them all a little above benchtop high and put your bench on wheels so you can push it out of the way or to where you need it and still have the outlets where they can service it.Easier to plug things in that way too.
Speaking of wheels put as much as you can on wheels and rig the rest for use with a pallet jack and don`t make anything too wide to fit out the door if you can help it.Better yet put in a sliding or overhead door.
That way you can work outside on those beautiful days.It also comes in handy to be able to wheel everything you`r not using at the moment outside and have plenty of walk around room for those bigger projects.
If you can,rig a beam from the big door across the length of the shop and hang a chainfall and trolley off it to move stuff. either make or plan to make a gin crane off the corner of the building(corners are strong and stable in 2 directions) that will pick high enough to unload things from a flatbed delivery truck like your steel supplier uses and long enough to reach from the corner to that chainfall and beam so you can yarn it inside.
Check wih your insurance carrier.If the shop is attached to the house then according to code and/or the insurance provider you may have to have a firebreak rated to a certain spec in the shared wall and the overhead at least to meet requirements and keep your insurance.
Hope some of this has been a help.Shout if you want more.

[Fosterob]

Bob is right about plywood being better. Use 3/4 ply and screw it to the studs and you could just about hang anything you want from it.
Rob

[Avadon]

You said something earlier about heat and air conditioning. Is that for the house or garage? Drywall offers a little fire protection and also helps keep the noise in. The main reason I would go with the drywall (5/8" or 3/4") is fire protection by covering all the little spaces sparks can get caught in and smolder, sound insulation and cleanliness. The thicker drywall is a lot stronger than 1/2". Insulating behind it also to help with noise at least if you are not worried about temperature. You dont have to cover the screws or nails so you can still see the studs if that makes it easy to hang things. Do the electrical all before insulation and drywall. For more fire protection and really easy clean up glue thin sheet metal to the drywall with spray glue.
Rob

Yes, heat (220V Heater from Northern Tool) to keep the garage/shop reasonable temp during the winter. The attached house has an electric forced air furnace, propane fireplace and another small pellet stove in the kitchen. During the summer though I t can get nuclear hot out in the desert (high 80's and 90's) and I want to have a in-window-unit Air conditioner. Does that pull a lot of electricity/amperage? Is that something to worry about?

OOooo This sounds like were going places now. So I would first line the walls with that black paper/plastic barrier stuff right.. then run good insulation (what thickness? RJ?) then put in my sound proofing (is this board or foam?) and then do the heavy drywall and then in some areas of heavy spark-spray put up the thin metal. Sounds like a fair bit of work, but it sounds really worth it. My neighbors aren't close. I'm on about an acre. But I never want them to think they are living next to a blacksmith. Never want to give them a reason to complain so insulation is definitely on my list. Thanks Rob.

[Fosterob]

You need the insulation more for temp if your heating and cooling the space and it will double for sound. The most important thing about heat is not letting it in in the first place and most heat comes down from the ceiling. I would put a ridge vent along the top of the entire house if it dosnt have already. There is a bubble wrap foil that is to go on the underside of your roof sheeting to direct the heat out the ridge vent before it heats up the attic A+. The R value is determined by the wall thickness R13 2x4 wall R19 2x6 wall are most common here . If you only have 2x4 walls I would consider making them thicker for more insulation. If you are really worried about noise you build another set of studs in between the existing ones just a few inches from the outside wall and weave the insulation through the double stud wall. That is to keep the wall itself from transmitting the noise through it, likley to be overkill except if a common wall to the house. Similar to triple pane noise windows. AC should not be a worry, Just insulate well. All vapor barrier should be there on the outside wall already, do not add more. We get to 120F here in the summer and I have done these things in my house and it makes a big difference, I have no AC.
Rob
.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

My Dad's workshop was mostly machining with some welding done. We left the walls open, no sheetrock. Depending on the size, and layout of the workshop, you may find that no matter how you insulate it you will still be cold, or hot while working out there.

For heating look at a small woodstove if the forge won't do it. A woodstove can be operated a lot less expensively(free) than an electric heater.

If you go with an AC unit get one that is 220V not 110V. It will pull half as many amps as the 110 unit will. More efficient. How much juice does one use? Have someone turn on the AC unit while you watch the meter. See how fast the meter starts spinning? Look into a swamp cooler. I grew up with one in Fairfield CA, and I loved it. I have one here where we hit 100 everyday for 3 months straight, with peaks up to 115. You learn to adapt your work schedule to cooler nights.

If you want a soundproof, weatherproof, temp stable building look into rammed Earth, or Earth berm.

[Dragons lair]

One big issue is if the power co comes out. They look at total draw. Are ya gonna be welding at max while machining at max and running heat and cooling at max. Try to tell them ya can't run several things at the same time. When was the last time ya popped the main breaker?
Ken.

[Steve Sells]

I never realized this. I always thought those twin breakers were just to save space. I'll try to keep this in mind. One idea for one of those dual 20amp breakers was to put half outlets on 1 20 amp side, and another half outlets on the other 20 amp breaker. Now that might be overkill.. but if I had like tv, some lights, and some tools running on one side and I started doing something on the other side (or a friend did) it wouldn't trip a 20amp. Maybe that is overkill. I don't know. I know it's rather hard to trip a 20amp breaker with common shop tools. What do you think? overkill? or smart planning?

I still can and do buy wholesale, so I have 3/4 inch conduit and every receptacle is on its own 20 amp breaker, Commercial grade rec. But I spent less than most would doing it with residential grade and romex.

My Bader B-3 is 1.5 Hp, and I have 1Hp for band saw, you get the idea. Many of my machines need 12 to 17 amps each, so I did that for when apprentices are around no one is tripping them, because they are all separate, still I only ran a 100 amp panel because I rarely have more than any 2 machines running at once.

I have the Co detector, but the alarm in the house is a great idea, I should add that Lucky that when I buried the 2 inch line for power to my shop, I also added a 1 inch conduit 12 inches above that for data (phone, intercom, security) so I have low voltage with the 2 lines of Cat6 I ran already in there.
Great Idea, thanks

[Avadon]

I would advise against drywall.Remember you are going to be dancing with metal in the shop.Something that dents or chips slightly beats something that ends up with holes at the drop of a hat.
They make fireproof plywood or you can treat your own ply or OSB rather easily.If you`re going to be doing a lot of cutting or other processes involving lots of sparks you may want to consider making the lower half of the walls sheet metal and the upper half ply or OSB to hang things off of.
Cleats around the top of the walls make it easy to hang tool boards that you can move individually to anywhere that is handy within the shop.
As far as outlets go.This isn`t the house don`t put the outlets down low.Make them all a little above benchtop high and put your bench on wheels so you can push it out of the way or to where you need it and still have the outlets where they can service it.Easier to plug things in that way too.
Speaking of wheels put as much as you can on wheels and rig the rest for use with a pallet jack and don`t make anything too wide to fit out the door if you can help it.Better yet put in a sliding or overhead door.
That way you can work outside on those beautiful days.It also comes in handy to be able to wheel everything you`r not using at the moment outside and have plenty of walk around room for those bigger projects.
If you can,rig a beam from the big door across the length of the shop and hang a chainfall and trolley off it to move stuff. either make or plan to make a gin crane off the corner of the building(corners are strong and stable in 2 directions) that will pick high enough to unload things from a flatbed delivery truck like your steel supplier uses and long enough to reach from the corner to that chainfall and beam so you can yarn it inside.
Check wih your insurance carrier.If the shop is attached to the house then according to code and/or the insurance provider you may have to have a firebreak rated to a certain spec in the shared wall and the overhead at least to meet requirements and keep your insurance.
Hope some of this has been a help.Shout if you want more.

I think your right about the drywall after thinking about it. It would work, but over time it would get a lot of dents and dings and the spark spray tends to singe it. I do a lot of cutting of stock with the angle grinder. Some day i'll get my 500$ metal cutting chop saw I saw. Until then I am master of the angle grinder. I've even used up de-walt angle grinders.. if that gives you any idea about how much I use my grinder. It's a tool I use at least once nearly every hour in the shop. Those grinder sounds are what I don't want my neighbors to hear much of. If they do hear something it will be during the day and muted.

Can you show me what the cleats look like for hanging toolboards. I am not familiar with that product. I've got almost all my heavy equipment on wheels. Sanders, Anvils, forges, etc. Your right that wheels make a world of difference. Having things in a permanent spot can be really restrictive as jobs change all the time. Unfortunately the threshold of my garage terminates to gravel. At some point i'd like to pour a large concrete pad so I can wheel the anvil and forge out for "those beautiful days."

I do want to be able to hang my chain hoist in the middle of the shop so I can pick up anvils and heavy stuff. I don't really know how I would hook up a gantry system or something where that chain host would be able to go from front to back or even better from side to side. I want to take out that middle partition. But i'm not sure if it's load bearing. It certainly takes up a huge amount of space. Worst case scenario I have to put a pole in the middle. But i'd like the space to be totally open. I don't deal with a lot of heavy things but occasionally I do need to lift up to 1000lbs to set it on something. Usually something mobile.

You might be right about the firebreak/insurance issue. I don't know what a firebreak is though. Does that mean some special insulation?

As you can see in the 33.jpg (last picture) that is a picture looking from the kitchen down into the garage. So there is a mud room in between and laundry room.

Thanks for the help.. If you think of anything that will help, keep them ideas coming. :)

[Avadon]

You need the insulation more for temp if your heating and cooling the space and it will double for sound. The most important thing about heat is not letting it in in the first place and most heat comes down from the ceiling. I would put a ridge vent along the top of the entire house if it dosnt have already. There is a bubble wrap foil that is to go on the underside of your roof sheeting to direct the heat out the ridge vent before it heats up the attic A+. The R value is determined by the wall thickness R13 2x4 wall R19 2x6 wall are most common here . If you only have 2x4 walls I would consider making them thicker for more insulation. If you are really worried about noise you build another set of studs in between the existing ones just a few inches from the outside wall and weave the insulation through the double stud wall. That is to keep the wall itself from transmitting the noise through it, likley to be overkill except if a common wall to the house. Similar to triple pane noise windows. AC should not be a worry, Just insulate well. All vapor barrier should be there on the outside wall already, do not add more. We get to 120F here in the summer and I have done these things in my house and it makes a big difference, I have no AC.
Rob
.

Excellent.. thanks for this information. I've copied this paragraph to my building notes. What exactly is a ridge vent? The garage/shop does hvae little 2" holes around the cieling level. I guess i'll be plugging these? or building a way to open and close them?

I'm not exatly sure about how I do the double studs and weave the insulation through. Is there a picture of that or a more obvious way to describe it. Does this mean the other set of studs stick out forward from the original studs?

[Avadon]

Oh is this the ridge vent you were talking about?



I'll look.. but I kinda doubt it has this. What does this do? Allow hot air to come out? Does it let your heat out in the winter?

Also I presume I need to insulate the cieling rafters right? Because otherwise all my heat in the winter will be lost into the rafters and all my cooling in the summer will be thwarted by a hot roof.

[Fosterob]

Yes that is one. I have that companys here. You need to have a balanced system which you will soon learn with a little more research. You need a ceiling in the shop to be able to insulate easily. The way I have seen the double stud wall is to use a 2x6 for the top and bottom but use 2x4 studs. Spacing here is 16" on center so as you start from one end the first stud goes off center on one side of the 2x6 then 8"" away the next stud goes off center the other side then 8" to the next on the first side and so on. The wall is the thickness of a 2x6 but built with double the amount of 2x4 studs. each side of the wall has its own studs, nothing is nailed to both sides like standard construction. Then you can weave the insulation between them. I think that "Air Vent Inc" has a lot of good information on attic ventilation. They used to have a small booklet that explained it all really well, I would think it is on their website now but I have not checked.
Hope that is more clear
Rob

[Avadon]

Yah I googled some diagrams



It's kind of like that. I don't know if I feel comfortable adding all that framing. I think I'll be more comfortable when I get in there and check it out.

My link

Thank you Rob for the help. I'm sure i'll probably have anther question or two in the weeks to come. :D

[Fosterob]

Thats it. Remember you already have most of those type of walls built, You just need to widen the top and bottom plates with a 2x2 or 2x3 and put another set of studs in between the existing ones. Should be pretty easy if your walls are exposed now.
Rob

[Avadon]

Thats it. Remember you already have most of those type of walls built, You just need to widen the top and bottom plates with a 2x2 or 2x3 and put another set of studs in between the existing ones. Should be pretty easy if your walls are exposed now.
Rob

Do you have to fire those studs into the concrete with that concrete gun thing? And ontop I imagine you use long screws or lag bolts to hold that beam in parallel?

[pkrankow]

Looks like you are building a sound studio with the insulation.

If your "living space" is directly vented by that ridge vent then you will loose considerable heat with it. If your attic space is ventilated, with the ceiling insulated then you won't be venting heated and cooled air out of your garage, instead attic air will be turned over and the heated and cooled air will stay limited by the insulated ceiling.

Now building a shop too tight can be a problem as you are working with dusty and smelly products, and need adequate turnover of air. Insulating is counter to this, so you may need an air exchanger that includes a heat exchanger to keep from venting all your good heat with your bad air.

Phil

[Fosterob]

I it was my house and the neighbors are as far away as you say then I would only put the sound wall on the common wall of the house-shop. More may be overkill. Screw the 2x3 plate extensions to the existing wood and toenail your new studs to both pieces of wood and it will be good,, the wall is already attached to the concrete.
Rob

[pkrankow]

Rereading, one question nobody answered: Do your tasks in order such as: framing, electrical, plumbing, insulation, drywall (or whatever skin you are using) This general order prevents having to undo or spend extra effort on steps as you have access.

HVAC fits in there somewhere but may need steps done before interior framing, and steps done after skinning the walls. In areas that require multiple inspections these steps need to be done in a specific order and inspected at each step.

Phil

[Avadon]

Okay Thanks All. You might be right about only doubling up the side that faces the neighbor, as the other sides are further from neighbors and I could just use standard insulation process.

[Fosterob]

I was thinking you would want to keep the noise from bothering people in your own house, is the shop attached to it? You may have a need for that in the future. I dont think it is hard to add the additional studs to make the sound wall. the only cost is the framing lumber and some labor. Once you do the first wall you can decide if it is easy for you do do the others. Usually for me the learning curve would be the first wall and the other just high speed production. The other benefit of the sound wall's additional insulation is more R value for temp control so you are helping more than just noise.
Rob

[Avadon]

I was thinking you would want to keep the noise from bothering people in your own house, is the shop attached to it? You may have a need for that in the future. I dont think it is hard to add the additional studs to make the sound wall. the only cost is the framing lumber and some labor. Once you do the first wall you can decide if it is easy for you do do the others. Usually for me the learning curve would be the first wall and the other just high speed production. The other benefit of the sound wall's additional insulation is more R value for temp control so you are helping more than just noise.
Rob

This is true. That extra R value will really help keep the warm in because the temp drops at night into the 20-40's depending on the time of the year. I also think it will help keep the cool in during the summer. Of course a lot of this is also dependent on how insulated the ceiling joists are.

[Avadon]

I've been watching videos on closed cell insulation in 2x4 walls. Closed cell construction

This stuff is really cool. Rather expensive.. but they are getting an R22 in just a 2x4 wall. I bet this really offer excellent sound dampening as well. Downside is it can be spendy.

[Mainely,Bob]

Closed cell foam is a bear to fish anything like wire or cable through I can tell you that.

[pkrankow]

Closed cell foam is rigid, so it does not have the same sound damping properties as fiberglass or cellulose. It is better at stopping air infiltration and vapor movement making it more effective per inch.

Phil

[Avadon]

Closed cell foam is rigid, so it does not have the same sound damping properties as fiberglass or cellulose. It is better at stopping air infiltration and vapor movement making it more effective per inch.

Phil

Ahh so there really is a reason why for sound rooms they use that staggered stud 2x6 construction? I thought there might be a better product I could fit in those 2x4 walls without having to widen the walls. Where does that pink sheathing fit into this equation. Do people ever use both the firebglass insulation and the pink sheathing? Is that any better for sound proofing a shop?