kraythe Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 First of all, since I am new here, please pardon if I ask silly questions. I have been reading a lot about ribbon burners on this site as well as this thread on another site. There is a lot of information all over the place but I still had some questions I hoped people would be able to answer. 1. Do the ribbon burners perform so much better over normal blown or venturi burners. 2. I realize the construction of a ribbon burner is much more complex but is it hard to get right? 3. I gather from the thread on the other site that the burner has a cavity behind the bore holes where the gas and air is mixed under pressure. Is there any requisite size to this? 4. Is there any size for the burner that is an upper or lower limit in the number of holes, size and so on. Could I make one 12" x 12" if I wanted? I am planning to have a 12"(l) x 9"(w) x 4.5"(h) forge that has both ends openable along with one side and using a fire brick floor composed of a layer of insulating brick then hard brick on top of that. 5. How do I know how much blower I need for the burner. I have been looking at the 164 cfm one on blacksmith depot and wondering if that would do the trick. 6. is there any issue with mounting the burner straight vertically or is coming in from the side better? would I be better off with something like a 6" x 9" top mount or something like two side mounted burners on the opposite sides? 7. would you coat the face of the burner with ITC100 to reduce it heating? 8. Given the premix in the tube, is there significant danger of flashback? 9. Is cast or drilled batter for burner construction. I can see advantages to both but I dont know how I would mount a drilled burner to the mixing chamber and achieve a good seal. Thanks a bunch for answering my tedious questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 8. Given the premix in the tube, is there significant danger of flashback? I can help on #8. The air/propane mix has a flame velocity, and as long as the mix is going faster than the flame velocity then you cannot have flashback. If you loose power, you loose air, you my have a problem, but the mix will become too rich to burn nice very quickly. Mixing of propane very upstream is done on blown burners regularly, and in some cases it is introduced before the blower fan for better mixing. Welcome aboard! It is said the only dumb question is the one never asked. Did you also ask on the NWBA site? A number of people who are there are here, and very helpful and registration is free. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toreus Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I second what Phil said! I made a blown burner with 2in black pipe without flamestop/flameholder/firebreak/whatever-it's-called leading to the chamber, and the only time I need to worry about burnback is when the tank freezes up. (No idea why that would happen, but there it is.) I'll also pitch in my ¢2 on #9. I think I got this from the same thread you linked, but I'm not sure- got no personal experience with ribbon burners either. What "they" said is that with castable you can have a refractory lip on the inside of the plenum chamber that seals it up, whereas with a drilled-out brick, there's a much higher chance of leaks.. I've tried to think up a way to use brick safely, but I haven't found one I'd feel comfortable with yet. The best I could think of was to cut the plenum opening 1in smaller than the brick in all dimensions, and then have a 0.5in groove running around the brick. Then cut out a "tab" to one end of the plenum, slide the brick in and somehow stick that tab and the endcap back on there to close it off. I'd say go with castable if it's not ludicrously expensive near you: plenty of other uses for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Here is a thread with detailed information on several different ribbon burner designs including some posts from the maker of Pine Ridge burners.Ribbon Burner Thread Its a must read if you are going to design one yourself. Ribbon burners generaly have a low turn down ratio because of the plenum behind the burner block. Meaning they don't idle very well. The low end of a burner's performance is limited by the need to keep the mixture flowing faster than the flame velocity (as Phil just explained) and also the need to keep the back end of the burner cool. When the air/gas flow is turned down, the back end of the burner starts to heat up. If the mixture is moving slowly in that area, it can ignite either from the temperature of the burner body or by the flame propogating back through the burner tube if conditions allow it. The plenum in ribbon burners is prone to this. The plenum behind the block is a large volume, low velocity area. As long as there is enough flow to cool the plenum and the back of the block, it's fine but if its turned down and the plenum gets hot, the mixture in the plenum can ignite. This is usually not dangerous but will trash the burner quite quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Great info in this thread. On this note, I have thought about using a ribbon burner in a heat treating furnace for long blades. I considered using a long pipe in the bottom of the forge, drilled with a series of large holes (to cut the back pressure as far as reasonably possible), and a naturally aspirated burner (I have a T-Rex) as an inducer. It'd be similar to this, but maybe with even better heat distribution: http://www.dfoggknives.com/photogallery/DrumForgePS/DrumForge.htm Since I'm not shooting for much above 1700 degrees, I figured simple black pipe could work for the ribbon, at least for a proof of concept. Based on what y'all are saying, even with large holes in the ribbon, a naturally aspirated burner just may not work very well in this capacity. A version of the same idea was to put a largish (say, 5"-6" diameter) pipe in the bottom of the furnace , with a hole in one end for the NA burner to fire into, and another hole in the opposite end for the exhaust -- kind of like an uninsulated forge. The exterior of the pipe would heat up, and the radiant heat from that would heat the main furnace. I don't mean to hijack the thread. If I need to start a new one, just let me know. That said, do any of you forge gurus have any thoughts on either of these ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Great info in this thread. On this note, I have thought about using a ribbon burner in a heat treating furnace for long blades. I considered using a long pipe in the bottom of the forge, drilled with a series of large holes (to cut the back pressure as far as reasonably possible), and a naturally aspirated burner (I have a T-Rex) as an inducer. It'd be similar to this, but maybe with even better heat distribution: http://www.dfoggkniv...S/DrumForge.htm Since I'm not shooting for much above 1700 degrees, I figured simple black pipe could work for the ribbon, at least for a proof of concept. Based on what y'all are saying, even with large holes in the ribbon, a naturally aspirated burner just may not work very well in this capacity. A version of the same idea was to put a largish (say, 5"-6" diameter) pipe in the bottom of the furnace , with a hole in one end for the NA burner to fire into, and another hole in the opposite end for the exhaust -- kind of like an uninsulated forge. The exterior of the pipe would heat up, and the radiant heat from that would heat the main furnace. I don't mean to hijack the thread. If I need to start a new one, just let me know. That said, do any of you forge gurus have any thoughts on either of these ideas? For your purpose, why work so hard and just tear down a bar-b-cue. My grill has 4 burners not very different from how you describe, and the radiant plates will turn dull red, so its not very far from your target temperature. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 I dont think a BBQ burner even in a very insulated tube will reach 1700 deg? My grill gets about 650... I cant see building three times that? I have no reason behind that but it seems really hot for a burner that is not oxidizer assisted in some way ... either blown or inducted fuel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 I dont think a BBQ burner even in a very insulated tube will reach 1700 deg? My grill gets about 650... I cant see building three times that? I have no reason behind that but it seems really hot for a burner that is not oxidizer assisted in some way ... either blown or inducted fuel... What happened was I left the grill on to heat, closed the lid.. then the phone rang and 20 minutes later I go back to an empty grill on high with the temperature spiked and the sheet steel radiant plates (about 1 inch from the burners and covered in flame all the time) noticeably glowing red. Propane grill, the back panel is now blue instead of shiny stainless. I am not going to call it the best way, or the only way,but consulting an existing design may be better than starting from scratch. The fuel is capable. It is fall, there are "junked" grills all over the place on tree lawns right now... Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Well, yeah, Phil, some propane grills actually are similar in some respects to what I have in mind. But I do wonder if I might have trouble getting enough combustion air in there with standard burners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Hmm. Well, some of these actually do look the part. They don't produce a ton of heat in a BBQ grill, but those things have very low pressure regulators. Hooked to a high pressure regulator, things might be different.... http://www.allpartsgrills.com/productCat99207.ctlg?gclid=COvnvJbL-aQCFRpO5QodLUw3hw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraythe Posted October 30, 2010 Author Share Posted October 30, 2010 Would a venturi generate enough pressure in the plenum to push through the holes? Hmm I don't know if that would work, I would be interested in your results if you give it a try. I am also wondering if the 164 CFM blower from blacksmith depot would power my theoretical burner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Would a venturi generate enough pressure in the plenum to push through the holes? Hmm I don't know if that would work, I would be interested in your results if you give it a try. I am also wondering if the 164 CFM blower from blacksmith depot would power my theoretical burner. In theory it will... Now in practice I could not say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraythe Posted October 30, 2010 Author Share Posted October 30, 2010 In theory it will... Now in practice I could not say... About the venturi or the blower? Which were you talking about? I wonder if there is some calculation about the number and size of holes for a given WCI pressure capability. Anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 About the venturi or the blower? Which were you talking about? I wonder if there is some calculation about the number and size of holes for a given WCI pressure capability. Anyone know? I know it's possible to calculate such things. There are formulas for losses due to changes in pipe size, direction, cross-section, and all that sort of thing. However, that's fluid dynamics, and most of my engineer friends didn't love it. For me, at least, the practical solution would just be to get a blower that I was fairly confident was overpowered by a fair margin. There seems to be pretty good info in some of the threads linked earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 ... I considered using a long pipe in the bottom of the forge, drilled with a series of large holes (to cut the back pressure as far as reasonably possible), and a naturally aspirated burner (I have a T-Rex) as an inducer. It'd be similar to this, but maybe with even better heat distribution: http://www.dfoggknives.com/photogallery/DrumForgePS/DrumForge.htm Since I'm not shooting for much above 1700 degrees, I figured simple black pipe could work for the ribbon, at least for a proof of concept. Based on what y'all are saying, even with large holes in the ribbon, a naturally aspirated burner just may not work very well in this capacity. ... The term "ribbon burner" generally doesnt refer to a specific design. In the combustion industry it's used to describe any burner design where the combustion is distributed over an array of small flames, usually in a line. The glass blowers, and by imitation, the smithing community use the term more specifically to refer to a block of refractory with a grid of small holes. These are also referred to as "perforated refractory" burners. IMO, the perforated black pipe with an atmospheric inducer, will work, if you can keep the burner pipe itself cool enough. This is the design used in barbecues and home heating furnaces. The flame temp is there, the BTU output is there if you have enough holes burning. Barbecues usually dont get that hot because they are not well insulated and leak away the heat. Heating furnaces are actively cooled by forcing air around the fire box. But you have a similar problem to that in refractory block ribbon burners. The mixture is moving fast as it exits the little jets but slowly inside the pipe. If the pipe gets hot enough (around 800F) it could ignite the mixture inside it. It seems like a very easy idea to test. Just perforate a length of 1" black pipe, cap off one end, stick the TRex 3/4" in the other and go. There's nothing like real experimental data, it beats conjecture (and complex calculation any day). And hey, if it's a bust, you have an iron flute! Tack it onto the garden gnome you have in your front yard and impress the neighbors! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 About the venturi or the blower? Which were you talking about? I wonder if there is some calculation about the number and size of holes for a given WCI pressure capability. Anyone know? The blower... I think the venturi is pretty well a no go by all accounts. You need positive pressure which can not be generated by a venturi.. And I was being a bit facetious... that a theoretical blower would work for your theoretical burner... in theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 I've been doing more research on the ribbon burners. Actually.... Joppa Glassworks is marketing ribbon burners that will work with commercially available venturies (they sell them also). They have a new line of smaller ceramic burners that are not yet on their website. The owner claims, even with the venturi, the noise level is low. I asked if he had something to measure decibels at 3 feet.... he doesn't, but he said he could have a normal conversation that distance from the forge. The list of "parts", including the burner and venturi, I would need to try his burner would be around $300 plus shipping, not including the cost of building the forge to host the burner assembly. A litte pricey for a "chance" for a quiet forge. I asked if he thought a home-made venture would work... He didn't recommend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Yep, Dave, you nailed it. That problem with the black pipe idea finally occurred to me as I was driving around earlier today. Couldn't be that easy, could it? The steel firebox radiating into the furnace, with the burner located outside in the nice, cool air, is probably a lot more likely to pay off. (A ceramic or refractory firebox would be more durable, but we probably don't need to get that fancy just now.) I guess the firebox idea is basically what the pipe burner would become if the fuel/air mix were to start burning inside it, anyway. But it'll probably work better to plan for that from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toreus Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Another thread, ciladog made a ribbon burner outa drilled firebrick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Pine Ridge Burners sell a small ribbon burner for $120, which seems absurdly cheap. Especialy when you consider it's professionaly designed. http://www.pineridgeburner.com/sales#prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 This is kind of a design question, so hopefully this is an acceptable thread in which to post it. Do ribbon burners have any inherent advantages compared to more common forge burners, other than more even distribution of the heat? Larry commented in the other thread that his new forge is getting extremely hot with the ribbon burner -- but what's making it so hot? Is the ribbon burner just using a bunch of extra fuel (compared to a lower-tech burner), or is it using a similar amount of fuel more efficiently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 This is kind of a design question, so hopefully this is an acceptable thread in which to post it. Do ribbon burners have any inherent advantages compared to more common forge burners, other than more even distribution of the heat? Larry commented in the other thread that his new forge is getting extremely hot with the ribbon burner -- but what's making it so hot? Is the ribbon burner just using a bunch of extra fuel (compared to a lower-tech burner), or is it using a similar amount of fuel more efficiently? Ribbon burners achieve more effective combustion. Tube burners produce a single large flame envelope and there isn't sufficient time for the mixture to burn completely. The problem gets worse when the flow is cranked up for high heat since the flame cone is now larger and has, proportionately, less surface area for its volume and the mixture velocity is higher. Ribbon burners produce an array of little flamelets with a much higher surface area per unit volume of mixture. The shop made ribbon burners being made by smiths are probably far from optimal, since they are designed by "seat of the pants" engineering, yet people report a significant increase in fuel efficiency together with very high performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plain ol Bill Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 More info about ribbon burners and one I built also. http://blacksmith.org/forums/threads/526-Ribbon-burner-forge-build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanancy Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Great information on ribbon burners. How and where is Ron Whales located and how do you get ahold of him to purchase his ribbon burner. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 No body mentioned Frosty's NARB or the attachment on my web-site on the Forge Supplies page. Check out the Build a Gas Forge attachment and the Ribbon Burner attachment on the Forge Supplies page on my web-site for instructions on how I like to build a good, efficient, tough, long lasting forge and how to build your own Ribbon Burner. You should be able to build in a couple of days leisurely work. Let me know if I can help you. Check my profile for my web-site, e-mail address and phone # , I prefer e-mail. Wayne ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now