Robert Simmons Posted October 4, 2010 Author Share Posted October 4, 2010 Ya lost me Phil. I have heard the saying"There are many different ways to get to town and they all arrive at the same destination",but I don`t know as I agree with "If the job was done it was done right". I`ve made a lot of money re-doing jobs that someone considered done but then needed to be reworked by someone who understood how to do it correctly.One paid $800 for 20 hours of work just last week.No material or parts,just labor,done by a hand that knew what right really was. Could you expand upon your statement? See then, its a good thing. If the jobs had been done right in the first place you would be out of business. Someone else did you a favor messing up. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Ya lost me Phil. I have heard the saying"There are many different ways to get to town and they all arrive at the same destination",but I don`t know as I agree with "If the job was done it was done right". I`ve made a lot of money re-doing jobs that someone considered done but then needed to be reworked by someone who understood how to do it correctly.One paid $800 for 20 hours of work just last week.No material or parts,just labor,done by a hand that knew what right really was. Could you expand upon your statement? Bob, I said is "if the job was done, it was the right way." I mean for making a hole, or other task that is typically part of a larger project. Yes there are wrong ways to do a job or a project, but the discussion is about making a hole or other feature to the intended project. Certainly there are times when 'you can't get there from here' where a feature was created that prevents another task from being done, and if the other task were done then the feature can be created without worries. There are also ways that are not suitable to the task, or conducive to completing the project in a timely manner. Similarly there are methods of work that complete the task properly and with less time and effort spent than other methods may use. For making a properly sized hole you can use any of several punches, some methods may or may not require drifting, and some methods the punch and drift are the same tool. Yes, I agree if a job is done poorly, then the problem may have been the method used, or the care in the efforts, or many other problems. I may build a small retaining wall and not worry about the consequences of doing a less than excellent job, or less than timely job, but I will hire a professional to put a foundation down for my house even though the materials and task are essentially the same. Does that help? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Bob, I said is "if the job was done, it was the right way." I mean for making a hole, or other task that is typically part of a larger project. Yes there are wrong ways to do a job or a project, but the discussion is about making a hole or other feature to the intended project. Certainly there are times when 'you can't get there from here' where a feature was created that prevents another task from being done, and if the other task were done then the feature can be created without worries. There are also ways that are not suitable to the task, or conducive to completing the project in a timely manner. Similarly there are methods of work that complete the task properly and with less time and effort spent than other methods may use. For making a properly sized hole you can use any of several punches, some methods may or may not require drifting, and some methods the punch and drift are the same tool. Yes, I agree if a job is done poorly, then the problem may have been the method used, or the care in the efforts, or many other problems. I may build a small retaining wall and not worry about the consequences of doing a less than excellent job, or less than timely job, but I will hire a professional to put a foundation down for my house even though the materials and task are essentially the same. Does that help? Phil Phil,that helps clarify the statement but I still don`t understand how the statement applies to this discussion and in particular how to properly shape a punch to get a hole that has both proper size and consistent,parallel walls like you would if you had drilled it. It could be that my understanding of what the OP is after is flawed.Help me out here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Phil,that helps clarify the statement but I still don`t understand how the statement applies to this discussion and in particular how to properly shape a punch to get a hole that has both proper size and consistent,parallel walls like you would if you had drilled it. It could be that my understanding of what the OP is after is flawed.Help me out here. I posted some links too, but on re-reading the thread two were linked earlier in the thread. I might have missed the boat so to speak. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Phil,that helps clarify the statement but I still don`t understand how the statement applies to this discussion and in particular how to properly shape a punch to get a hole that has both proper size and consistent,parallel walls like you would if you had drilled it. It could be that my understanding of what the OP is after is flawed.Help me out here. Bob, what the OP is shuffling around -- though he lacks the words at present to say it this way -- is what process to use to make holes suitable for riveting. If you've been following this and other threads that he's started, it should be pretty clear by now that the OP is as new as newbies come, and he sometimes seems to have some trouble grasping that in blacksmithing there often is more than one acceptable way to skin a cat. It seemed to me that Phil was trying to help him see that there's more than one way to get a round, straight-sided hole, and more than one tool (or combination of tools) suitable for the job. The OP was asking about geometry, but geometry depends on process, and there's more than one process that can be used to make round, straight holes. That seemed like a pretty reasonable response to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Simmons Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 yes. I am a newbie. Is that a bad thing? YOu have to start somewhere right? Or am I just annoying people with questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 yes. I am a newbie. Is that a bad thing? YOu have to start somewhere right? Or am I just annoying people with questions? Don`t get the wrong idea Robert,newbies are a VERY good thing! Questions asked by new smiths keep the old hands thinking and also get the rest of us looking closely at and questioning how and why we do things and that is also a very good thing. In order for any craft or trade to survive there must be an intake of new members and those new members should be made to feel that they are welcome and their participation is valued.New members should feel they can ask questions and that the more experienced are willing to share what they know freely and respectfully.I enjoy coming to IFI because I see this happening here every day. I think it`s also good to remind people that for every person who steps forward and asks a question there are probably 10 more people who are standing on the sidelines and reading the exchange of information that question sparked so Robert`s questions are helping both an unknown number of people besides himself but also serving as a catalyst to cause this information to be recorded here for others to benefit in the future. It`s all about communication.What may look like an argument to some is probably just either a simple misunderstanding or just 2 or more people trying to come to common ground on clarification of terms or ideas. Remember,it`s impossible to read a person`s tone on this little screen,although some folks may try and tell you different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 One thing that can confuse people is that the *answers* to questions may change depending on your experience and background! When I teach an "intro to blacksmithing" class at the local University I ask the students what their major is and where they want to go with smithing and then tailor the answers to that---we can discuss crystal structures and dislocation climb with the MatSci folks; or just tell someone in psychology that "you need to heat it up and do this to it". (Unless they want to make knives and then I think they should know the details of what's going on rather than old smith's tales; but even then we will start at a very basic level...). For an advanced smith we might suggest forge welding a tool together where for a beginner we might have them draw it down from a larger piece---more time involved but "simpler" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 One thing that can confuse people is that the *answers* to questions may change depending on your experience and background! When I teach an "intro to blacksmithing" class at the local University I ask the students what their major is and where they want to go with smithing and then tailor the answers to that---we can discuss crystal structures and dislocation climb with the MatSci folks; or just tell someone in psychology that "you need to heat it up and do this to it". (Unless they want to make knives and then I think they should know the details of what's going on rather than old smith's tales; but even then we will start at a very basic level...). For an advanced smith we might suggest forge welding a tool together where for a beginner we might have them draw it down from a larger piece---more time involved but "simpler" Well said Thomas. I believe one of the keys to any type of learning is to find a point of reference that a student is both familiar and comfortable with and the instructor also understands.From that common departure point you have a better chance of communicating clearly while not boring the person(s) in front of you or shooting the info over their heads. In the service that was covered under"know your target audience" and "avoid using jargon" in the instructor`s handbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 Don`t get the wrong idea Robert,newbies are a VERY good thing! Questions asked by new smiths keep the old hands thinking and also get the rest of us looking closely at and questioning how and why we do things and that is also a very good thing. In order for any craft or trade to survive there must be an intake of new members and those new members should be made to feel that they are welcome and their participation is valued.New members should feel they can ask questions and that the more experienced are willing to share what they know freely and respectfully.I enjoy coming to IFI because I see this happening here every day. I think it`s also good to remind people that for every person who steps forward and asks a question there are probably 10 more people who are standing on the sidelines and reading the exchange of information that question sparked so Robert`s questions are helping both an unknown number of people besides himself but also serving as a catalyst to cause this information to be recorded here for others to benefit in the future. It`s all about communication.What may look like an argument to some is probably just either a simple misunderstanding or just 2 or more people trying to come to common ground on clarification of terms or ideas. Remember,it`s impossible to read a person`s tone on this little screen,although some folks may try and tell you different. Well said Bob. Thanks for saving me a half a page of typing. Thomas, as usual, is on point as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 No, Robert, it's not a bad thing. It is what it is. We all start somewhere. I was just trying to explain why Phil's point to you was a good one, given where you are right now. But rather that potentially misinterpreting Phil, let me just make the point myself. Something that I think most of us struggle with early on, especially if have limited time to practice the craft, is the expectation that there must be a lone, perfect, right, ultimate way to do "X." We don't want to waste time on doing it "wrong," so we maybe start to obsess a little about identifying the One True Way: a single right steel to use in making a particular tool (or a single steel that's used by industry to make a particular tool), a single right design for the tool, a single size of stock to begin with, one particular tool to achieve a given result (e.g., a straight-sided hole for riveting). But in many cases -- not all, but many -- that expectation just ain't true. While there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to find better ways to do things, it's also possible to overthink it. You can waste so much time worrying about finding the perfect way that you that you pass over a dozen perfectly good ways, and this can really slow down your progress. You come across to me -- and again, as Bob suggested, maybe this is just the imperfection of the written word -- as being pretty worried and frustrated about the possibility that you might not be doing things exactly "right." If that's not the case, then I apologize for misreading the situation. But if it is, I'd like to tell you to try to relax and -- as someone else said -- have fun. Smithing is very much a creative exercise in which there's frequently a lot of room for differences in process, tools and materials to get the desired end product. There's a lot of art in this craft. Don't be afraid to make mistakes, and don't worry too much if someone says they have a different way of doing things than yours. Hear them out, ask them why, maybe even experiment -- but don't let it stress you out. At the end of the day, most of this stuff ain't rocket science. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Shimanek Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 Hmm that is contrary to what I read. Can anyone confirm that to be true? I have read and was told that drifts should be tapered on both ends to fall through the hole. Their size is on the largest size in the drift so if it was a 1/2" drift, the largest diameter or width would be 1/2". The goal was when you punch these through metal, they size the hole exactly and fall out. Punches, I have been told, should be sized based upon the tip size of the punch and they should at least have a soft shoulder if they are flat tipped. I was told that punches should be tapered. Now if this is true then that is fine, I can turn what I have into a drift with a bit of grinding. However, I would like to get the right geometry. I have been looking all over the internet for confirmation on this and lots of people sell them but I have found no definitive guide. Does anyone know a printed or electronic guide that is good for describing tools including detailed explanation of their geometry? Don't get confused, punches and drifts are different tools with different geometries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Simmons Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 You come across to me -- and again, as Bob suggested, maybe this is just the imperfection of the written word -- as being pretty worried and frustrated about the possibility that you might not be doing things exactly "right." If that's not the case, then I apologize for misreading the situation. But if it is, I'd like to tell you to try to relax and -- as someone else said -- have fun. Smithing is very much a creative exercise in which there's frequently a lot of room for differences in process, tools and materials to get the desired end product. There's a lot of art in this craft. Don't be afraid to make mistakes, and don't worry too much if someone says they have a different way of doing things than yours. Hear them out, ask them why, maybe even experiment -- but don't let it stress you out. At the end of the day, most of this stuff ain't rocket science. I wouldn't say that is quite accurate about me. I am just simply trying to pick people's brains and learn the ropes so to speak. I suppose I could just putz around and figure things out and to an extent that is part of the learning process but I dont want to waste a ton of time discovering the square wheel wont work if others have already tried it. So with the punches and drifts, I was looking for a description of their geometries so I could recognize which was which and the uses of each. Since I have conflicting information, I am just trying to reconcile it all. Thanks for the encouragement to others. I appreciate all the information handed to me on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 OK. If I misread what's going on, again, I'm sorry. For the record, I'm not saying you should "just putz around." I'm just suggesting a good ratio of putzing around: thinking/reading/asking. It's one thing to read someone's explanation of how this stuff works; it's sometimes another to see it for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 "Book Learning" (and now internet learning too) can only take you so far. At sometime you have to step up and start making mistakes. Folks that are afraid to make mistakes will have trouble progressing in blacksmithing. One top smith, (made the Sutton Hoo sword on display with the original in the British Museum), showed us one of his "trial" pieces he did while trying to get a good reproduction of the original---he *knew* he wouldn't get it right the first time and so planned for several attempts. For real fun I ask people who tell me that they "*KNOW* all about smithing" because they had done it in a video game to demonstrate. *Very* amusing when they find they have no hammer skills, can't judge temperature and totally underestimate the time and energy it take to forge something. (I was once consulted by a game maker who wanted to inject a little relism into their game---they wanted me to tell them how to start with ore and mud and trees and end up with a forged steel blade---no problem; been there, done that; then they told me it has to take less than 6 hours.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 Ah, once again a thread takes a tangent off the subject to something even more important! First, nothing at all wrong with being new to a craft and as this thread is starting to show, there's nothing like a good question to get the juices going. A little personal history from me, I'm largely self taught, Dad was a metal spinner and machinist and being a depression age kid discouraged me from smithing as I should learn a paying trade. Nothing particularly superior about being self taught or adapting from books. Taking classes has huge advantages but you still have to be able to adapt and improvise based on personal failure analysis. If you aren't failing occasionally you aren't learning anything! A couple basics to know about blacksmithing: #1, ask any number of smiths a question and you're going to get about 2x that numbers of answers. Once a person has been doing this a while you discover several ways to do a particular thing. #2. We're blacksmiths not "English Majors" (Prarie Home Companion) so it's pretty much the norm for us to have to read something several times to figure out what someone just tried to say or describe. As Bob (I think)said and experience has taught me is a true joy, there's nothing like a good question to make you think and analyse just WHY the HECK you do a thing THAT way. Then of course we get to try putting it in a language someone else can understand. Seriously, the "Jargon" everyone curses when a professional uses it is actually vital for accurate communications. Small example being, try ordering a drill bit for a soil sampling rig using the common name. Good luck. So, when a person is learning a new trade, there are a lot more processes going on than just learning to DO a thing. There's the language, processes, materials, uses, failure analyses, and to do any of that short list whoever is trying to show you has to learn how to express and explain themselves. It's fun if you like living on the learning curve and I do. some folk are really good at applying book learning, some less so and some completely hopeless. Some things are just too foreign, you can't think outside the box if you don't even know one's there. Heck, lots of times it's best to learn the inside of the box thoroughly before you take a look out. This is one purpose of classes or maybe I should say a characteristic of classes. Classes, especially beginning classes are about the box so pay attention, eh? There're all kinds of things a person runs into that can sometimes make learning a craft easier and other times make it darned near impossible. blacksmithing suffers both sides of this coin in great measure. First off it's mystified a great deal and has been for millenia. This mystique has advantages, it's a human thing to want to be part of the in crowd so there can be a great drive to learn the "secrets" and be thought of as a "Practitioner". Then there's the worst part, the downside and that's all the myth invented by people trying to "Figure it out" often without any ideas outside what they picked up playing D&D. One aspect of the mystique is the belief there is a BEST way to do a thing. Sometimes there is but usually not really. A best method is usually so dependant on the situation it becomes meaningless as a generality. Looking for the "best" or "right" way can be the hardest thing there is to stop doing. Best is usually a very personal thing in the manual shop. A new comer can get seriously caught up in learning and understandling a mythical "best" way. Seeing as "best" is most often depoendant on lots of variables from material to tools, to heat source, to lighting, flooring, your grip, height, eye sight, hearing, hair color, etc. there is only ONE way to determine what's best and that's PUTZE around till you get it. Okay, so that was an awfully long intro. What I'm saying is stop looking for the "Right" way, you make your own with knowledge and practice. Oh sure, if you're working in a shop with a master HIS is the "right" way. And HIS "right" way is the customer's "right" way. It doesn't matter how wonderfully superior your product is if nobody wants it. Unless it's for yourself of course but you're the customer so the rule of applies. New comers tend to overthink things and having talked propane burners off forum with you Robert, you tend to. Nothing wrong with you, I overthing things and once you get a handle on a craft it can be a tremendous advantage. If we can control it of course. So, the last thing you have to worry about is annoying anyone for a couple reasons. First a lot of us love answering questions and the thought involved in expressing ourselves well enough to do so. Some folk here are just annoyed anyway so don't sweat it. Most often an annoyed response is in large part a knee jerk reaction caused by a bad day so don't take it personally. If something gets personal or out of line on the Forum the moderators will deal with it. It isn't likely to be on the forum either unless a person gets WAY out of line, I don't think I've seen a public bett chewing since I've been here. Not from Admin that is and personal shouting matches are pretty short lived, that's one of Admin's jobs and they do it well. So, ask your questions, file the replies, ask for clarification if necessary but whatever you do do NOT take anything personally, it isn't. Once you've gotten some input light a fire and take a slash a few times, keep notes, make sketches, pics are good and pay attention of what happens when you do a thing a way. The notes are really helpful when you post a pic of the "how'd THAT happen?" thing. It'll be easier for folk who've had the same "HUH?!?!" result to help you out. Well, that's probably WAY more than enough rambling. I'm sure you're tired by now and I expect Admin to tell me to edit my posts anytime now. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Simmons Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 (I was once consulted by a game maker who wanted to inject a little relism into their game---they wanted me to tell them how to start with ore and mud and trees and end up with a forged steel blade---no problem; been there, done that; then they told me it has to take less than 6 hours.... Man I am a newbie as green as they get and even I could tell you that will take hundreds of hours, especially without a power hammer, the old fashioned way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Simmons Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 Well, that's probably WAY more than enough rambling. I'm sure you're tired by now and I expect Admin to tell me to edit my posts anytime now. Frosty the Lucky. Frosty you have been incredibly helpful to me and I value that extremely. If you wrote a book, Id be first in line to buy it and read it cover to cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 Frosty you have been incredibly helpful to me and I value that extremely. If you wrote a book, Id be first in line to buy it and read it cover to cover. See, I am not the only one who thinks you would write a good book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 When I used to sell my wood bowls(some went 18"+) in galleries people would ask me to explain the process. I`d tell them something like "In order to turn a bowl like this one you must be VERY patient.First you plant a tree.." :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 "Tales of the Great White Birch"? "War and Birch"? "The Birch also Rises" "Catcher in the Birch"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 "Tales of the Great White Birch"? "War and Birch"? "The Birch also Rises" "Catcher in the Birch"? "Birchheart","Forest Birch","Dances with Birches". Now you done it Tommy,ya got me goin`!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 Catcher in the Birch? Birch-22? The Old Man and the Birch..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 You guys are killin me! How about: The old man under the birch? "Hambushed" Tales from the pork forest? So put any of my ramblins you like together and we can start editing. I'm just too lazy to actually write a book you know. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 "The Birch Whisperer","Frosty`s Birch Adventure","Birch-hard","The Birch-hiker`s guide to the universe(sub-titled "Don`t Panic")". With this many potential books your publisher will have to open a "branch" office. That`s it,I`m stumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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