Arc Welding and Hardy Tools

[Blacksmith Jim]

Hey folks,

Recently I've been thinking about all the fun different types of tools I need (get) to make. The last month or so I've also been learning to arc weld. So what I'm wondering, is how much abuse a good arc weld can take. Can I weld up hardy tools? Bending forks and such.. What about welding the stem onto a tool, say something like a hot cut (something I need to make very soon).. What is good stock to start making a hot cut from? Basically I'm wondering if I can get away with welding tools onto a basic square stock that fits my hardy. Or.. Welding up the sides of a hardy tool that are too thing to sit in my hardy without moving around too much..

Any advice, anecdotes, etc.. is much appreciated.

[dief]

If your welds are good they will takes tons of abuse. I use my 110volt gasless mig to weld up all sorts of tools. You can also make some great texture dies. I use 1 in angle for the post on the bottom of my hardie tools. Some folks around here use the 1in angle to put up their illegal "for sale", etc signs. The signs and posts keep falling into the back of my truck. BOG!

Experiment. If it breaks - make it thicker.

[6013]

Why not use flatbar on the diagonal of the hardie hole?

[mcraigl]

Regional, absoulutely you can weld a shank onto your hardy tools. If your tool hot cut say has a big enough shoulder the face of the anvil will really be taking the brunt of the beating. Bending forks don't take "that" much punishment as far as getting beat on with a hammer. I use 1" square tubing for the posts on many things.

[Blacksmith Jim]

Cool guys. Thanks for all the feedback. This definately helps in my justification of adding a welder to the 'shop tools I need' list

The next purchase will be a drill press I think..

[Swamp Fox]

The welder is not just for hardie tools. Hardie tools are only a reason to practice welding. What about that power hammer you wanted to build? As soon as he see you have a welder, there are the neighbors projects, etc.

Think of the welder as a glue gun for metal.

[Ferrous Beuler]

If your welds are good they will takes tons of abuse. I use my 110volt gasless mig to weld up all sorts of tools. You can also make some great texture dies. I use 1 in angle for the post on the bottom of my hardie tools. Some folks around here use the 1in angle to put up their illegal "for sale", etc signs. The signs and posts keep falling into the back of my truck. BOG!

Experiment. If it breaks - make it thicker.

Perhaps a cargo net over the bed or one of those landau covers could help with this problem?

[Ferrous Beuler]

Hey R.C. I hope you are having fun learning welding. Advice for anyone this way- GET EDUCATED FOR REAL, take a welding course. You will Actually learn proper methods and SAFETY practices. R.C. you say you are learning arc welding. Try mig, you might like it better. It is of course personal preference but I find it so much easier to deal with than stick and in a small shop for that now and then quick bead you need just flip a switch and there you go. This is possible in the small shop with an inexpensive 110v flux-cote wire feed (no gas). Quick Simple Cheap. Keep on hammerin'. Dan:)

[Ian]

Yup,
I've seen Hardy tools that were all forged from one piece and I've seen plenty that were welded together, even made a few in Choppers Shed meself. The main abuse on a hardy tool should be on the shoulder thats sitting on the anvil, the shaft just has to sit snugly in the Hardy hole. If your beating on it sideways then your missing somthing..... :D

[Ten Hammers]

I'm gonna have to agree with earlier posts. If you have no welding training, I'd get some. Local Community college would be a place to start. Stick, Mig ( fluxcore and solid wire ) TIG and Acetelyne. Lot of safety issues + plenty of stuff to learn the right way the first time. FCAW ( Flux core, without shielding gas welding ) can absolutely be fine. Just a little more cleanup. Bottle safety alone is worth a million if you've never had any training. Learning to read a puddle is critical if you want good welds.

[Mr Smith]

I was always told that a good weld can be stronger than the parent metal. There are bending forks that I made when I first started out, that are still going strong.

[Thomas Dean]

33+ years in the welding trade and still learning! The field changes SO STICKIN FAST! Welding on some 2205 Duplex Stainless today for a pressure vessel, fun. Education, education, education, it will pay for itself in no time. Good luck and BE SAFE!! Welding can be very dangerous, both to the welder and from the end product if the weld is of poor quality.

[Blacksmith Jim]

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I am indeed learning from a community college. Here in Eugene we have Lane Community College (LCC) which is great. They really have some awesome programs. The instructor mentioned that most people who start out with arc welding have an easier time moving on to Mig, etc., later on. Where as when people start with Mig or some other kind, then they have a harder time picking it up. I'm not sure if I will take another welding class next quarter or not. This one has been fun, but it can be tough fitting things like this into my schedule. We did a little bit of Oxy cutting a few weeks ago, and that was pretty neat to learn as well. The class is going to be over soon, but I have access to a few different arc welders at friends places. Pretty soon its gonna be time to put it all to the test and get the forge built :)

[Blacksmith Jim]

I was always told that a good weld can be stronger than the parent metal. There are bending forks that I made when I first started out, that are still going strong.

One thing the instructor has mentioned that would support that is that if a weld fails it should be the metal next to the weld that rips or breaks, not the weld itself.

[Chris Pook]

when using junkyard springs/axles etc for the tool part, a quick preheat in the forge will help the welds hold.

[ThomasPowers]

An old lincoln tombstone can be bought for very little, I picked up mine for US$40 and it's probably older than I am and still welding strong!

Thomas

[Blacksmith Jim]

Can one run a decent arc welder on 115v? My friend picked up a hobby arc welder from harbor frieght that runs on 115 or 225, but I think for 115 it recommends using thinner rod then I have been...

[the_sandy_creek_forge]

Regional,
all of my hardy tools (not that many) have an arc welded, angle iron shank on them. I use 1 1/8" angle (cause that is the size that the HF anvil that i use for a hardy holder likes) I simply chop off a 2-3 inch chunk, bevel the end to be welded from the INSIDE, and lay my weld on the inside, this way there is no weld bead on the outside to interfere with the fit.

While I had no "formal" training as a welder, my father did. When I was younger, dad would give me things to weld for him, and when I came back the usual response was: "go grind that appart and weld it again, that'll never hold." I would love to know how many pounds of rod I went through getting welds that were satisfactory (my guess is WELL over 150 pounds). As soon as I get my college loans paid off, I am gonna take night classes at the local community college for welding.

HF welder: for the price of a harbor freight arc welder, you can spend slightly more and get a good used lincoln tombstone type ( I actually know someone who is selling one that is AC/DC for a reasonable price), and for a little more than that you can have yourself a brand spankin new lincoln tombstone. Of course these usually work best on 220v (or your local equivalent). But if they've been around since my grandpa was young, they must be doing something right :)

[ThomasPowers]

Go with the 220V if you can---I have to pull it around to the side of the house and use an extension cord to the electric stove plug to run mine currently but am slowly working towards getting 200 amp service to the shop with a dedicated welder plug!

Note when comparing welders check the duty cycle!

One nice thing about old well established reputable brands is that there is good parts and accessory availability both new and used. I pick up ground clamps and stingers at the fleamarket for my old lincoln fairly easily!

Thomas

[Sam Salvati]

Yup,
I've seen Hardy tools that were all forged from one piece and I've seen plenty that were welded together, even made a few in Choppers Shed meself. The main abuse on a hardy tool should be on the shoulder thats sitting on the anvil, the shaft just has to sit snugly in the Hardy hole. If your beating on it sideways then your missing somthing.....

AHHHHH but what about those small little L bick hardy tools? That will certainly stress the shaft and neck?

[Mills]

A problem I have found with my newer tombstone vs the old one in the shop is that the leads are soldered in a very inacessible place inside rather than bloted on lugs. I was going to put 25' leads on mine like I had done for the shop. When I saw the machinations needed to do that I put on an extension cord and wheels.

[Dale Peters]

I agree with Thomas. I bought an old tombstone-style Lincoln Idealarc 225 9-10 years ago at an auction for $50 (including leathers and helmet). It makes me look like I'm a good welder. You just can't beat 'em. About a year ago I bought a Hobart 175 wire welder and I really like it too. But when I want to stick some heavy metal together, I use the Lincoln.

[Ed Thomas]

I always recommend forging hardie tools to fit your own anvil. No two hardie holes are identical so one that you custom forge for yourself, by definition, will fit better than a fabricated one. In general, I actually find it easier to forge a hardie tool than to fabricate a tool, make and weld a shank to it, and grind it to fit. This is especially true for hardie tools I intend to use often and keep for a long time.

Once you forge a good hardie tool, and drop it into your hardie hole with this unbelievably satisfying "thunk" of a perfect fit, you will never go back to sloppy fabricating alternatives for real working tools.

Having said that, I still occasionally weld hardie shanks on miscellaneous jigs and devices which get light and infrequent use, and aren't forged tools.

Mills: Rather than replace the leads entirely, I just made 35' extension leads. It's been awhile since I made mine, but I think the connectors were "Tweco"... or something like that. Pretty easy to make. Then you can keep your extension leads if you change welders later on.

For my money, I think a good torch set is indespensible in a blacksmith shop, particularly if you don't have 220V available. Withouth the power, you'll always be fighting to get decent penetration with the dinkier 110V welders. And for the price of a cheesy MIG, you can get a complete O/A torch set, including tanks, gages, and hoses. I think MIG's are too finicky to go cheap. Get a decent one, or none at all.

With a torch, you can weld, cut, locally heat, braze, heat-treat, apply finish, and impress your friends and neighbors. With a cheap MIG, you can... well.... glob up some weld beads sometimes.

[Blacksmith Jim]

Is running a welder on 110 gonna be a huge pain in the ass? Is it gonna make it extra hard to get a decent bead? Is it gonna limit the thickness of rod I could use? What type of wiring needs to be done to install 220? We recently built a garage, and the inside walls are bare. Would it be relatively simple to have an electrician out to put in a 220 circuit in the garage? There isn't room in the garage for my shop, but there is space next to the garage, and I could weld there when I need to.

Ed: I think an oxy set up would be incredibly beneficial. Although I haven't done any welding with one, just cutting. However, a decent welder seems more familiar and I would be more comfortable with it for now. An oxy set up seems more dangerous, and I would want to have a better idea of what I'm doing before getting that kind of set up.

[Ed Thomas]

RC: There is no difference in complexity in wiring 110 and 220. It is just a matter of selecting the right wire for the load, the right outlet for the appliance, the right breaker... and wiring it in. Your house panel is already 220V by definition. Each 110V outlet is just using one leg of that to ground. Wiring a 220V outlet for you would be complete routine to any electrician.

As far as safety... you already have a healthy respect for the hazards of O/A. That's most of the battle right there. Any welding supplier will be happy to teach you most of what you need to know to use a torch set safely. It is a rare community that doesn't have at least one knowledgeable welder who can show you the rest. There are online links for using torches safely. For instance, for Victor you can go here:

Thermadyne: Home

and more specifically for literature, here:

Thermadyne: Literature

I think many people would be better off learning to gas weld before arc welding anyway. You MUST learn to watch the puddle and control your torch and filler rod to gas weld successfully. But it is so much easier to see what is going on as you gas weld. Then welding with rods or wire makes complete sense.

It would probably make more sense to start a new topic... but I'd be interested to hear what others think of propane/oxygen vs O/A. It might be a little less intimidating, for one thing, since propane is quite stable compared to acetylene.