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I Forge Iron

Owning / doing our best


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I've avoided reading this thread all day because I had things to do and I knew I could easily get sucked in. And frankly, it was getting pretty frustrating that we mostly seemed to be talking past each other, and I really wasn't sure how to fix it. I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised with the direction the conversation has gone. I think this is a pretty good stopping point, but I will add a couple things.

It would be very hard to argue to a person who only sees the tool, not the feeling I get from using it that its a reasonable thing... But its real and important to me...

I see this whole thing as trying to explain art to someone who just does not get it...


I absolutely do get this, Larry. All I was trying to get at is that even people who appreciate art sometimes just don't have the option of buying the real thing (and some people can afford aggravation better than they can afford to spend more money). I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's basically a point about walking a mile in the other guy's shoes. I usually haven't done that -- which is something I try to keep in mind.

I suspect Matt is just playing devil`s advocate here and in other threads which is good because it make the rest of us take an even harder look at our particular lines of thought


Well, not exactly. I admit that I have been kind of flip about certain issues that I thought would distract from the basic point I was trying to make. We were trying to cover a lot of ground, and I was kind of trying to keep the field from getting even more impossibly large. But I haven't said anything I didn't basically mean. However, it's obvious to me that I have not done a good job of explaining exactly what I did mean. If I had, you wouldn't think that

If he really believed all he has been saying he wouldn`t be producing his own work thru blacksmithing,he`d be buying Chinese made scrolls and welding them together using a HF mig welder and selling gates to his friends and neighbors for $50 each.


That tells me I haven't been clear at all. But that's OK. We don't actually have to solve all the world's problems here and now.
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It all comes down to cost of labor. Since this country was started, it was fueled by cheap labor starting with slaves and then poor immigrants. The problem now is that with the current labor laws, cheap labor is not possible and we will therefore never again be able to compete with the manufacturing of poor un-regulated countries. Current American manufacturing was only been able to continue due to heavy automation.

That being said, I buy American or high quality European products when I can.

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no PJ the cost of labor isnt the problem. In the 1950's and into the 60's detroit made the best autos on the planet. Those union workers were the highest paid in the world for most manufacturing jobs. They were paid well and spent their money. The economy was good. Since then it has been downhill until now.
If the companies paying workers paid a decent wage then those workers would spend thier money and that is what makes life good for all. If the overseas goods are not charged a high enough tariff then the gov. is not doing its job to protect american jobs. Oops the gov is in the pocket of those same companies that are outsourcing jobs and importing garbage stuff. The way it seems now is since most people are not making the money that was available in the past they think that they must buy the cheap imported junk just to keep money in pocket. Now youre in a snowball rolling downhill.
Sorry for the rant
Rob

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It all comes down to cost of labor. Since this country was started, it was fueled by cheap labor starting with slaves and then poor immigrants. The problem now is that with the current labor laws, cheap labor is not possible and we will therefore never again be able to compete with the manufacturing of poor un-regulated countries. Current American manufacturing was only been able to continue due to heavy automation.

That being said, I buy American or high quality European products when I can.

Just a note on this one. Yrs ago I needed a large socket. Went to my tool crib. Can I borrow a brand new craftsmen
Socket and bar. Finally got it by agreeing to replace it if dammaged at all. Removed the bolt cleaned the tool.
HMMM made in Tiawan. Did ya know stanley tool works makes sockets for most of the US markets.FIL worked there.
Son Levis are no longer USA made. I have a 1/2 doz shirts. Made in tiawan with levis logo.
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Just a note on this one. Yrs ago I needed a large socket. Went to my tool crib. Can I borrow a brand new craftsmen
Socket and bar. Finally got it by agreeing to replace it if dammaged at all. Removed the bolt cleaned the tool.
HMMM made in Tiawan. Did ya know stanley tool works makes sockets for most of the US markets.FIL worked there.
Son Levis are no longer USA made. I have a 1/2 doz shirts. Made in tiawan with levis logo.


And that supprises you???
Its not about american made, brand or otherwise. For me its about quality made and made to work well.

Remeber the days when tools had rounded instead of sharp corner and Levi's lasted for a LONG time?
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And that supprises you???
Its not about american made, brand or otherwise. For me its about quality made and made to work well.

Remeber the days when tools had rounded instead of sharp corner and Levi's lasted for a LONG time?

OK fe. Leiv'S LASTED A LONG TIME. When was the lsst time ya bought Levi's that didn't say made in Tiawan
Or some other country. I have 6 shirts hanging say levis'e made in Tiawan or else where. I buy the Rustler brand.
(stone washed boot cut for $9.99 A Pair.
Ken.
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OK fe. Leiv'S LASTED A LONG TIME. When was the lsst time ya bought Levi's that didn't say made in Tiawan
Or some other country. I have 6 shirts hanging say levis'e made in Tiawan or else where. I buy the Rustler brand.
(stone washed boot cut for $9.99 A Pair.
Ken.



Ummm.... I cant remeber¿? I spent my child hood in Levi's seems they went "out" sometime in the late 70's????
I buy Kirklands finest.... $14.99 a pair..... Costco has good benifits :lol: :lol: :unsure:
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I read that story not that many years ago, like maybe 8 years. Seems Levi darn near went under resisting going off-shore. We like to blame the @#%!# bloodsucking manufacturers, but this one was totally driven by the consumer. Gotta give people what they want and in this case a quality product succumed to the demand for lower price.

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I read that story not that many years ago, like maybe 8 years. Seems Levi darn near went under resisting going off-shore. We like to blame the @#%!# bloodsucking manufacturers, but this one was totally driven by the consumer. Gotta give people what they want and in this case a quality product succumed to the demand for lower price.




Hmmmmm
Quote New York Times January 29, 2007
"But the privately held Levi’s, whose founder sewed together the first pair of jeans in 1873, has been unable to exploit the latest $200-a-pair denim craze — and now claims scores of smaller competitors are riding high because of what it created. When consumers’ tastes shifted toward designer jeans that were bejeweled, torn and frayed, Levi’s was still selling basic $30 pairs at K-Mart."

Sound like market savy had more to do with it
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gata love wikipedia-

By the 1990s, the brand was facing competition from other brands and cheaper products from overseas, and began accelerating the pace of its US factory closures and its use of offshore subcontracting agreements. In 1991, Levi Strauss faced a scandal involving six subsidiary factories on the Northern Mariana Islands, a US commonwealth, where some 3% of Levi's jeans sold annually with the Made in the USA label were shown to have been made by Chinese laborers under what the United States Department of Labor called "slavelike" conditions. Today, Levis jeans are made overseas.
Cited for sub-minimum wages, seven-day work weeks with 12-hour shifts, poor living conditions and other indignities, Tan Holdings Corporation, Levi Strauss' Marianas subcontractor, paid what were then the largest fines in US labor history, distributing more than $9 million in restitution to some 1,200 employees.[9][10][11] Levi Strauss claimed no knowledge of the offenses, then severed ties to the Tan family and instituted labor reforms and inspection practices in its offshore facilities.
The activist group Fuerza Unida (United Force) was formed following the January 1990 closure of a plant in San Antonio, Texas, in which 1,150 seamstresses (primarily Hispanic women[citation needed]), some of whom had worked for Levi Strauss for decades, saw their jobs exported to Costa Rica.[12] During the mid and late 1990s, Fuerza Unida picketed the Levi Strauss headquarters in San Francisco and staged hunger strikes and sit-ins in protest of the company's labor policies.[13


So I was off 20 years...

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We are now officially wandering off into the political swamp and I`d really like to see this taken back up onto dry land.
As someone said in a previous post,"It`s not where it`s made it`s the quality".
My original post even said in the sub-title,"How good is good enough?".

Larry spoke of some of the things I had hoped would surface with this post as did a few others.There are ties to some tools that go beyond reason and there is a level of quality that has the ability to motivate us to take our work to the next level.Most of us have seen and felt that.
What worries me is how we can feel that way about individual tools and then go out and buy low quality things like clothes,shoes and furniture.These are things we spend far more time with than our tools.

Matt brought up a very valid point about how demand drives production.If the goods being offered in most stores are any indication of our demands then we have become a nation of "good enough" and we have shifted focus to low quality,short term durability and a place where price is king,regardless of everything else.

There are some very interesting things bubbling up here that are keeping on topic.Please guys,let`s not sabotage this discussion and close it down by getting off into the same old country of origin arguments.

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Bob
I recon the Chinese are much malined in this thread! That said I have been to China on numerous occasions to buy tools amongst other things and I have bought some Great hand made chisels and clamps "like grandpa made" they were also ridiculusly inexpensive! However when I bought equipment and tools for our factory we have always been happy with the product. In China you can ask a factory for a price on a "widget" and they will tell you that they can make this item for 3 cents or $3.00. Wich or where in between do you want? Therefore it can be made from die cast zink or hand forged Titanium the choice is left to the buyer.I suspect most comercial buyers opt for the 4 or 5 cent version so as not to apear a cheapskate, it's these parasites that should be blamed for the crappy tools and not the Chinese.
I live in South Africa and we have the same problems here, sadly these days you don't really get what you pay for as those buyers will use the $3.00 price as their starting point for calculating their selling price so the consumer ends up paying $3.80 for said widget wich actually cost the 4 or 5 cents initially. We used to make a 300dia 304 tube Delta handle wich used 1.2m of tube per handle, I found a similar handle(well made)for sale in China for what we pay for 1m of the tube (SA is a major producer of S/S)so I think it is more that we get ill treated in our own markets than being hurt by others. I guess that you guys are in a similar position.
Feeling like your left wrist is handcuffed to your right ankle and you might just be abandoned in the park.
Fontunately for us the Chinese have a different taste in artistic and they therefore they just don't do the same type of Wrought iron that our markets want, so for now we still have an edge! Remember if you got many of these tools at the real price you would probably be impressed as to how good some of these things are for "lucky Packet" prices. May the forge be with you, Ian

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a thought I just had is....

So 400 years ago in north America the average family probably had no more than a handful of "purchased" items.... A rife, some cookware maybe some tools... All of these would have had to be transported here and most likely made the trip with them or the generation prior ( in 1650 there where less than 75,000 settlers) These items would have been virtually irreplaceable.... A hundred years or so later there where over two million with manufacturing and self supporting endeavors, But I bet much of that same "value" was felt even though resources for new items where much more abundant... Still a person most likely had to work very hard to obtain the few items there where worthy of a purchase.. A few items that would relate to his household or trade.. The rifle he bought would likely be the only one he ever owned... The tools he commissioned with the blacksmith where expected to last several life times.. The items where IMPORTANT... The person making them, selling them and the people using them where all invested in the quality of the tool. Now I am not suggesting that everything was made to the highest quality possible... Just trying to paint a picture

Scarcity created an emotional attachment and a desire for quality?

I remember seeing a thing on Japanese swords on Discovery... Most of us think.. oh thats a real pretty sword, Id sure like to have a couple of those for display... Well it took a crew of 7 people a year to make a high quality sword and it cost a years worth of nobleman's wages to buy one... And if one failed in battle the family of the maker might be slain as a punishment for poor quality...

My guess is there where not a bunch of "wannabe" sword makers.. Those swords where held in family's for 100's of years, passed down to the next generation, each one a little more removed from the reality of what it meant to own it.. Until one day some offspring sold it to a collector happy to have the few bucks

I guess what I am getting at is as far as a county and our current discussion... Our main problem is the state of mind that abundance creates... We live in a world today that even our grandparents would find hard to believe.... Just about anyone, anyplace has access to everything at the touch of a button... through abundance we have created a disposable society.... We dont have to make our cloths, grow our food or make our own tools... when it comes right down to it there is nothing we need that cant be obtained without a very minimal output... As a individual the tools of my trade are personal and valuable... But the dickie pants I wear? They cost $16/pair and I go through maybe 4 pair a year... Which is what I would want... Would I buy an American made pair that was 3 times the money and a little better quality? probably not given the choice. the Dickies are "good enough" Looking around I see dozens of things that would fit that same basic model... I complain about low quality tools because high quality tools are important to me... But taking an inventory of my life shows there are many, many other areas where I just dont care... that "good enough" is the norm. Seeing that makes it a little easier to see peoples point about the tools...

This has nothing to do with the discusion but its a good story ;)
My Dad has a tool and industrial hardware store in southern Idaho... He has several surplus tool connections and often will call me up when he finds a deal and ask if I am interested... So some time in the last year he called me up and says so and so has cases of vise grips for dirt cheap, do I want any? Heck yeah! O bought about 40 pair of various pairs... The 6R is the little guy. I think they where around $2.25 the big 10R where like $4 they had thousands of pair at the surplus place... You know why? Vise Grip moved all there manufacturing to china so they pulled everyone's inventory of "US" made and surplussed them so they could be replaced with the "new" import tools... Wouldn't want any of those pesky old US made tools getting sold to the retail public now would we


Another thing I wanted to point out.... Im with Grant on the availability and economy of Chinese equipment... Would it be better if I could buy a new Chambersberg or Nazel for $20,000? Well if you could you could bet it would be being made in China and be a comparable quality to a Anyang... It is what it is... I think its better to have the option to buy a Chinese hammer than have no option... If there was a market for $150,000 self contained hammers someone would fill it... Economics is a pretty basic set of rules and results that are pretty hard to buck... If there is a demand, a supply will develop...

So in closing I gotta say I think we are doomed.... I think there will always be a small high end market for just about everything... tools, cloths, food, furniture or what ever.... But thinking that we are going to change into a nation that values quality over quantity is silly


I have a friend that often says "how you do one thing, is how do everything" meaning you can tell a lot about a person based on inspecting a single aspect or project..

I cant remember who told me but one of the other bits of wisdom that has stuck with me is.. "Treat every project as if it is the one thing that you will be judged on, because to one person it will be" I have one "acceptable" level... it doesn't matter if I am making $1000 or $50... It gets done the same way... When working with others I am often surprised at the "its only a $50 thing,. why bother doing a good job?"

Now I am just rambling..... I best git to work and do something, even if its wrong.

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Maybe I`m just an old slow headed throwback but I do remember the things the "Old guys" passed on to me and the thoughts that drove them.
One thing that remains in the back of my head is the idea that when someone sees something you`ve done they get a feeling for the type of person you are.More than one of my mentors impressed upon me that it`s easier to do something well once than it is to have to do it over.

I may not be the most talented set of hands on the block but with everything I put my hands to I try to leave it with some indication that the man who did the job really cared about what he was doing and took pride in his work,skills and abilities,he was NOT just pushing through it in order to collect a paycheck.
If you don`t care about your job and are only in it for money then why aren`t you down on the corner selling dope?Plenty of money it that and the work isn`t all that hard.The demand is there.

To paraphrase Ghandi,"By making something useful and enduring a man makes himself".
I`d like to think we would all want the highest quality we could get in regard to tools,skills and materials when it comes to building ourselves.
Why wouldn`t that apply to the rest of our lives?Wouldn`t it go along with the "How you do one thing is how you do all things" line of thought?

BTW-When it comes to buying jeans I usually wait for the dollar day at the thrift shops or Goodwill and buy them there for $1.oo per pair,they become my good jeans and the former good pair become my work ones.
Most of my quality tools also come from fleas markets and yard sales.Bought a 3 lb Atha taper head hand sledge for $2 last week.Nice balance,my son`s gonna love it.

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When I buy something I want it to last as long as I need it. Some things I need for a lifetime. Others for a weekend. I get annoyed at needing to replace things because it breaks down.

I have a cheap air compressor. It may not be a top-of-the-line model, but I don't need to fire it up very often so it'll likely last me indefinitely.

On the other hand, I bought a decent, but on-the-cheap-side front load washer... highly rated by comsumer reports, etc. 2 years later the spin cycle is broken (it dooes spin... in diagnostic mode.) I'm ticked. For that kind of money it should be much more reliable, even if it was one of the less-expensive of the expensive front load models (as compared to the top loader.) That company is never getting my business again. I'm relatively confident that they're designing these things to fail early to keep their repairmen in business.


As for my personal ethic, I refuse to do things that are just inferior. That means that I spend much longer building a closet than I should. Part is not having the experiance to back me, relying on "thinking things through" instead, and part is simply not being content with "good enough." The fact is that I'm going to be looking at the results, and if I'm not happy with it now it's going to bug the heck out of me for years, so I do it right (or at least as right as I'm capable of) so that I can't kick myself repeatedly over the years for settling for an inferior job in the interest of getting it done faster.

In the end it's the perfectionist's dilemma... you don't like putting out crappy work, so do you even start? Do you find other things to do and never manage to finish when it's not living up to your expectations? :)

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Back when I started in the trades, my first boss told me to buy the best tools that I could afford. he didn't say to buy the best tools made. I personally have never had a cheap tool break while it was stored in a tool box. I have however, had many tools break while using them! when I built my house, I was installing the temp. electrical supply, and I stripped out a ratchet while tightening up a lag bolt. my Dad's response was " it's Craftsman, just bring it back and get a new one". The point that was missed was, I was at a new site, no power, limited tools, and what I had broke. At that point, I didn't care who made it or what kind of guarentee it had. That tool didn't go back, it went to the scrap pile, and was replaced by a Snap-on. That being said, I have a cheap Chicago Electric orbital buffer I bought a few years back at HF. I used it to polish some sheet brass w/Brasso. It still works fine, but most of the time it sits in a box.I prefer to make things myself now, but I can't scratch build a 1/2" ratchet wrench either. For tools I'm going to use professionaly, I buy brands that I have tried and have proven themselves to be dependable. If someone else is going to use them also, I may spend a few extra bucks and sleep a little easier. If i got hurt because I purchased a cheap tool and it broke, then my pain was "self inflicted". If someone I know got hurt because I bought something cheap and that's the tool I provided them with, then that's a little different. Speaking of cutting corners, it's pretty sad when McDonnalds has a recall on their Shrek glasses...Wonder who signed that purchase order?

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Lovin' and hating this thread!

Back to some firmer ground:

Choices need made when building anything, and as mentioned several times choosing the best possible or available answer is prohibitive for any of several reasons, cost being a typical answer, weight or other performance being additional answers.

Yes, weight or performance. Building using lighter materials, thinner gauge metals, materials that are more brittle and less suited to long service life may have an impact on the cost of ownership beyond the purchase price. Car chassis are made from thinner metals than ever in efforts to improve fuel efficiency. Bicycle pedals that have breakaways (for safety in a wipe out) that a 200# ox like myself can snap going up a good hill (I use cheaper stronger heavier pedals now). Back in the day building a plowshare that would last without service was impractical too: it would weigh too much and cost too much. The farmer could not buy such a plow, and it would take more power (horses) to operate it!

Back in the day however tools were built with the understanding that they could be rebuilt, remade, and would require this. That is a very different attitude from the disposable attitudes of fast food and slick color printed polystyrene packaging wrapped in shiny plastic society has today.

Phil

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I understand what you`re saying there Phil and agree with the disposable part as well as the suitability thing.

When people talk about buying or owning the best then it may become important to the discussion to communicate what "best" means to the people involved.To some it may just mean the newest or prettiest version,to others it may mean the best price.Another group may feel the best material that present technology has to offer may be the deciding factor or longevity may be the key for some.
I completely understand the idea of not going out and buying a Ferrari or even a Cadillac when what you really needed was a compact model pick up truck.The opposite side of the coin is,once you have narrowed your focus and objectively sorted what your real needs are then it comes down to "How good is good enough?".That is an individual and very personal thing and it is understandable that this will vary widely for each person involved and sometimes for the same person buying different items.
What my very real concern was,how do we all feel about the idea of having our choices restricted by the practice of what seems to be quite a few companies who used to produce high to mid quality products switching to lower quality goods and discontinuing their mid to high quality lines?As these companies skate close to the line in their efforts to cut costs then there are bound to be times that line is crossed and we will see more and more recalls(it`s happening now).Recalls mean that there has been a mistake made that endangers people`s health or safety.This is one of the very real hidden costs of doing business along these lines.The cost of litigation is shutting some companies down or forcing them to go where our legal system has little hope of holding them responsible,like 3rd world or emerging counties.
As was stated before,if it is not being made anymore and is now unavailable then your choices become either buy the low quality disposable item or do without in most cases.I see this as a defining shift in our thinking and in my estimation the shift came when we stopped asking who made the better/best product and started asking who makes the cheapest.
The biggest difference before was that the consumer decided who lived or died out there based on quality and performance.Now it seems our choices are far fewer and quality is getting harder and harder to find.
Are we(and I mean the middle to lower classes of what used to be blue collar society) headed toward the only choices being between cheaper and cheapest?

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Wouldn`t know about that,I`m a whatever`s available at Goodwill or the thrift shop kind of guy.
I DO always hope for Carharts though,mostly I am just mildly disappointed to leave with Wrangler or Bugle Boy relaxed fit.
I did snag a great pair of Vasque hiking boots once,wore them almost very day for 2 years and then had `em rebuilt.Only lasted a year after that. <_<
Some of us are real sorry to see the nearby naval air station close down.Aviators and Marines tend to buy and later donate quality footgear.

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Some of us are real sorry to see the nearby naval air station close down.Aviators and Marines tend to buy and later donate quality footgear.


I've been known to wear my old leather combat boots -- from my own Marine days -- in the forge. My Danners are too warm for most seasons in Virginia.
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I've been known to wear my old leather combat boots -- from my own Marine days -- in the forge. My Danners are too warm for most seasons in Virginia.


DANNERS! I thought you went for the cheap stuff Matt.You are SOOO busted. ;)
Danners are one of the best boots going.I wouldn`t wear my Matterhorns in the shop and they are a poor(but not cheap)imitation of Danners.
You must have been an officer in the USMC and stationed much further north than you are now.
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