Mills Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 I have been building a railing for my parents place and it was coming along quite well til my mig hiccuped, a LOT. It is a '78 Miller with leads you switch between jacks like some old Forney stick welders I've seen. Can't seem to get the wire to feed. This was given to me with a spool of wire in it. It sat for quite a while before I got it and the wire was very dusty on the outside of it. It was almost full, though. I have used up the spool tonight. It has put down the entire roll till now without a hitch. I had replaced the liner when I got it and the tip seemed to be fairly new so I left it on. I have had this thing cranked up laying down a lot of bead for a couple of hours at a time the last 3 days. When I started having trouble I started diggin in deeper and deeper. Found a lot of gunk in the tip and in the part the tip screws into. A lot of build up in the end of the liner, as well. Decided to switch out the liner with the old one that I kept just in case but I bent it while hurrying as fast as I could. I now have the newest liner soaking in kerosene. Was told that was a good way to clean them. Any advice from those in the know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aametalmaster Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 I used to use paint thinner to keep mine in then blow it out with an airhose before putting it back into the gun...Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Are you sure the liner is the problem? Do the feed motor and/or rollers turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Like Scott says, check the feed rollers. Remove the gun and check to make sure that the connection between the gun and welder is not obstructed or damaged in any way. Liner should come up to the front roller but not touch. Other end should allow the tip to screw in freely to the bottom ( unless you have a Bernard gun or some other type that tip slides and twists ). Unobstructed gun and tip now. Gas nozzle should be free of boogers and nothing to touch contact tip ( grounding the nozzle ). Back to feed rollers. Check the electrical connection between the gun and welder. This allows the trigger to run feed rollers. Each time the gun is triggered, the roller motor should click and advance according to your wire speed adjustment. I'm unfamiliar with your particular model. I have a Miller 172 here at home. I run CP 250's and CP 300's at work. Check your feed rollers to be sure they are turning. Check to see if they are dirty and/or damaged. Runnin gunky wire through them may have worn then a bit but sounds like you got along ok with liner replacement. Check to see if the rollers TURN when you trigger. I have a glass 5 amp fuse in my circuit. Too much pressure on the top bearing of the rollers will blow this fuse ( located on opposite side, accessed by removing cover of welder ). Good idea to remove this cover anyway and blow out nasties. Be careful. Use one of those clip pocket blowers and don't blast the circuit boards with hard air blast. Check contacts to be sure they aren't contaminated. I would also be contacting a dealer for any paperwork showing schematics. You may be able to access these on Millerwelds.com - Home don't know. Also check wire spool tension. Should be free but not enough backlash to cause problems. Yes, I clean liners with brake parts cleaner and compressed air. I have no tank to soak them in but I guess a bucket would work. I also might shove some wire through the liner with a little bitty bend on the end to break up any crud and then continue to spray and clean. I use pre-roller clip on felt wipers and have also used paper towels clipped on same place with an alligator clip for same purpose. Good luck. I sure ain't no expert or service tech. Just have a little experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 I am always amazed at how fast and on point smiths are. I have a Tweco 16' lead. Liner placement, I will be reinstalling today and see what happens. Feed rollers: Yes, they are turning. I have cleaned them w scotch brite pad and scraped some gunk out of the groove with small screwdriver. I have retensioned the spring that holds them together. It feeds just fine till the last couple of feet then things start going south. End of the gun: Didn't realize the nozzle would ground the tip. I guess that explains the insulation it sits on. I definitely need to replace nozzle and insulator. And that MAY be the cause of at least part of the problem. Electrical: I have been through the whole gun when I got it, tracking down a short. Replace spade terminals and cleaned contacts, etc. I have used a Scotch Brite pad as a preroller wiper I may use a clothes pin to give it a little more bite. Good to see that it is a sound idea. I have run .045 wire through the liner to push out crud but it stops at various places like it is bulldozing more and more crud. That doesn't make sense to me. Is it possible that one roll of wire could build up that much in the liner? Yes it was a dirty roll from sitting, but after the top layer it was bright and shiny. It had been in the machine with the cover down so I discounted the top layer. One other thing I noticed is as I ran wire through back and forth checking roller action, etc. is that I could feel a roughness near the gun end. But back feeding the .045 wire though resulted in nothing that I could feel. I am about convinced in reviewing this that I have a liner problem and I should run some brake cleaner through it next. No compressed air, darn it. Another question, when do you replace the tip? I have seen this become egg shaped. I have ground it back some in trouble shooting to see if that had an effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainman Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Make sure the rollers are adjusted so as the wire feeds thru okay,. As far as the roughness in the gun, it comes from a bad liner and also a bad tip. Mountainman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irnsrgn Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 the copper tip is where the wire picks up the electricity, if it is egg shaped at all, welding will be intermittant, grinding back will not help, I usually go thru about 3 or 4 tips per roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Just to answer your question, yes, less than one roll can contaminate your liner. I got some Forney wire from the local farm store ( because like a moron I ran out of Harris from the supplier ). The forney wire clogged the gun/liner in about as quick as you can weld. It may have been in the store for a while, don't know. I do know this. Current wire mfg is in China and also Mexico. I have not searched really hard but this is what I have found ). Work wire recently was Mexican. Before that was Chinese. Get it hot nuff, it'll run. I don't replace tips till they start stickin wire. Everyone's different. We have a moron at work ( and yes he's a supervisor that doesn't weld ) that is like pullin teeth to get a nozzle or tip from him. One operation, I can fry a nozzle in a day ( mebbe 2000 welds 1 1/2" long and runnin hot ). Pays to have connections with the boys and the stash of consumables. I also use vaseline for nozzle dip but it will spoil a nice piece that you plan to oil finish. If you are going to blast or acid treat, then it's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irnsrgn Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Just so you will know, I use only one brand of wire in my Mig Welder, its copper coated, Hobart HB28, its an E70 S6 wire and it works the best with my type of work where I mainly use hot rolled as is and for repairs of small things that are dirty or rusty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 ER70S6 wire is all I use as well Junior. you might check the wire mfg country of origin. If it is USA, please let me know cause I want some. I get my wire from ( former ) Universal Welding ( now Linweld ) in Ottumwa. 10# is all that'll fit my little rig at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aametalmaster Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Do you use the little felt wipers on your wire? So do some don't, i do and they get dirty. I run salvage dirty S-6 wire on my welder, 300# in the last 6 years and i am still on the orig liner. I get a good deal on tips from ebay seller jeff nolan welders4less and when i run good wire i get it from him also and get the tips shipped along with the wire for free...Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills Posted October 23, 2006 Author Share Posted October 23, 2006 Wonderful stuff. Definitely need a new tip or several I suppose. Yes I have installed a scotch brite pad with a clip for wiping. Cleaned the liner with kerosene and brake cleaner, have it running again. It takes some false starts to get it to weld, that may be a bad tip issue. Will be getting supplies and trying new parts. Thanks for the help. Will be posting some pics when I get this railing done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 A trick we used at my last job was to fold up a paper towel (or even cloth) to about a 2" x 4" pad and wrap it around the wire where it leaves the spool and enters the guide before the rollers. Clamp with a clothes pin or one of those heavy duty black spring loaded paperclips. It wipes the wire b4 it reaches the rollers. Make sure you have enough room. You don't want the clip to make contact anywhere it will ground out. Change paper towel weekly or even daily if you do a lot of heavy welding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I need to read all post b4 I post . Missed the wiper posts and the scotch pad trick. Please forgive my redundancey :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I would steer away from using scotch brite ( not because it doesn't clean) but because it is abrasive and can leave particles on the wire as it goes into the liner - thus adding to the clogging problem, I would stay with a felt type wiper that doesn't abrade but still wipes. The cost of the felt wipers at the welding supply store is very minimal compared to lost time at crunch time when your triing to get a job done and things stop working. Been there, done that! Just my pennies worth. -JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Gold Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Also note that to reduce tip wear, rollers should not be set tight enough to leave serious impressions on the wire... those impressions work just like a file on the soft metal of the tip and ream it right out. If you can feel more than a couple thou of play between the wire and the tip it's a good idea to replace it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 Good stuff, thanks to all of you. I believe I'll need some new drive rollers as I switched one with another that was used as well and I am back to welding finally. But it is very finicky now about the lead having much arc in it. It is a combination of troubles it would appear. I am able to deal with it now after getting so much good advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irnsrgn Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 The smaller wire feed welder, Miller 35 and the newer ones are quite sensative to wire feed speed being right. I bought my first wire feed a 35 used at a body shop auction, and it had a short, I think 10 foot lead on it and one of the big bulky guns, I replaced it with a tweco mini gun and a 16 foot lead and I have never been sorry for that descision. the mini gun is so much easier to use and get into tight situations. I have shortened the lead several times so that is about 12 feet now and keep a replacement liner on hand. I have to keep the kinks and loops out of the lead when using it tho for the wire to feed right. I used to use thos felt clip on things, but I was always having trouble with the liner filling up with the gunk used to lubricate the felt, so for the past 25 years or so I have not used anything and have had no trouble with the wire feeding thru the liner. FWIW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I was having problems with the wire feeding on my little Mig, so I just opened it up, and found that the roller spring was not tensioning the wheels enough, so it wasn't moving the wire out the tip enough if at all, so I added this little wedge shape peice i had and bam, it was like the welder was brand new and was working great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 FWIW, if you want to "clean/wipe" your wire before it goes through the liner just use the filter off of a cigarrett. (it's really the best use for one anyway ) If you can, keep the wire covered, don't allow the wire to get dirty from what's in the air. I use a short piece of hose between the spool and the drivers on my machine at work. My personnal machine (at home) is a Miller 250X and the wire is inside so no problem. If your machine can run .045 flux core/dual shield and you don't have the correct liner and drivers just loosen off on the drivers. It will work, just takes some tweaking time to get the rollers to the correct tension. (of course you have to use the correct size tips) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredlyFX Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I use a felt deal I bought at my welding supplier, and he suggested to spray it with the tip cleaner periodically. It lubes the wire as it goes through. I don't weld every day, but I have had no problems with it, and the machine I have was very hevilly used before I got it by a body shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 Well I have been tracking my machine down on the net while trying to get near enough to the dealer to stop in. I do have a Miller 35 made in '78 with a 15' tweco gun, but what is a mini gun? and what is involved in cutting back the liner? I ask because the man behind the counter says, with a great deal of confidence, that I have a bad gun. OOOOoooooooKK! Why? cause it don't work (with perhaps an implication that if it was a Miller gun it would) OooooKK! how can that be diagnosed? Bring it in as well as the machine. MMMMmmm I did not hear an answer I don't believe. (little humour there guys,, very little) The upper drive roll shaft and bushings are pretty worn. They did not even give that acknowledgement. The drive rolls them selves SEEM to be ok but I'll buy new top eliminate them if necessary. I do think it is in the Gun about 1-2' from the end. So back to the previous questions, what alligator are in the water I am about to dive into? Oh yeah tensioning on the drivers would finally get it to feed but at the point of doing as Tgold said. Leaving an impression in the wire. Even at that it still didn't feed well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Ink Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 A good way to keep a liner clean is to take an ear plug and put it between the spool and the rollers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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