Frosty Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 IIRC the Vikings in Nova Scotia were primarily farmers and traded furs and supplies to "norse" explorers and traders. They also integrated with the local natives. I THINK I recall the smelting and forging sites found so far were primarily a bit more than what any farmer or small village needed for it's own needs. I haven't seen any reports of iron tools being trade items though I have no doubt the Native American members of the village owned iron tools, they were family after all. The impact of Great Lakes copper on the Bronze age is an eye opener and is a clue to why the natives welcomed the Norse like old friends. Phoenician, Mycenaean, Viking, the ships all looked alike, Rowed gally, long low with high prow and stern shallow draft, the shape and seaworthiness goes back to reed boats. Including shields hung with oar locks between them, to shield the rowers from enemy arrows? Nope, because it was the best place to store your shield, it was handy and blocked sea spray, wind, etc. Spectral analysis done on copper ingots found in ship wrecks turned out to be largely Great Lakes copper. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Considering that the earliest removals of the Cherokee in the 1820s were well after their first contacts with Europeans in the late 17th century, it's not particularly surprising that they would have adopted blacksmithing as part of their material culture over that century plus. Interestingly, Sequoyah (c. 1770-1843) was a blacksmith, and was inspired to develop his syllabary for the Cherokee language in part by the difficulty he had keeping track of his customers' accounts. He is the only person known to have invented a functional writing system without himself being able to read or write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 His cabin is about 30 minutes south of me but it’s been years since I’ve visited it, I might take max down there sometime for a visit an get some pictures for y’all, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 CRS: You mean besides the well documented use of meteorites for cold ironworking before European contact? It's interesting that some of the early Spanish explorers claimed that SW Indigenous tribes were smelting iron, (incorrectly it seems.) IIAC I read it in "The Coronado Expedition 1540-1542" G.P.Winship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 You feeling alright today Thomas? Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Iron man, that’s because they are believed to have arrived over 20,000 years ago… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 1 hour ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said: Not really ancient history but There’s some Cherokees here in Eastern Oklahoma that have been forging frog an fish gigs for several generations there’s a couple Cherokee smiths that were or are national treasures to the nation, Good video about them: (Check out his anvil, too.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Yes I’ve seen that video, and I did notice his anvil, i don’t personally know him but his shop is somewhere over on the other side of tahlequah, I thought about running over there for a visit sometime, I’d like to meet him an watch him make a gig I tried making some gigs from mild steel awhile back but they didn’t turn out to good, I was trying to forge weld the barbs, i got a couple done but they were way to small and the sockets were terrible so I threw them in the scrap pile lol, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Learn something new every day, TP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatLiner Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 In the Museo National de Antropologia de Mexico they have a whole room full of copper, brass, bronze alloy axes called Tlaximaltepoztli that have been found down there. Most people skip the room or just breeze on through without so much as a thought of when, where, or how they came to be. There were copper mines being mined in the area of Michoacan pre Spanish era. The Aztecs, Maya, Purepecha and Mixtec's all knew how to work copper, bronze, gold, silver etc before the Spanish arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 I found their use of depletion gilding interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Do you have any idea where they were mining the tin for bronze? GNM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatLiner Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 No idea, I don't even know if they are truly bronze, but supposedly the copper deposits are some form of naturally occuring copper alloy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 35 minutes ago, FlatLiner said: copper, brass, bronze alloy axes called Tlaximaltepoztli I made a hatchet for a Mexican American client that was very loosely based on one of those axes. 27 minutes ago, George N. M. said: tin for bronze? From the Wikipedia article on tlaximaltepoztli: "Metallurgics were introduced in West Mexico via maritime trade during the Classic period [300-950 CE], since most found objects are near the coast during this period." It cites a book entitled "The Sounds and Colors of Power: The Sacred Metallurgical Technology of Ancient West Mexico" by one Dorothy Hosler (MIT Press, 1994), which sounds quite interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatLiner Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Apparently there were/are tin deposits in Guerrero, Mexico close to some copper deposits there. They had some knowledge of making copper alloys Cortez stated that in the markets if Tenochtitlan "hatchets were sold made of copper alloyed with tin" there are other Spanish accounts of them alloying copper with gold. One ancient Mexican copper chisel was analysed and it came back as 97.87% copper and 2.13% tin not enough to be what we call bronze. A different Aztec chisel was analysed and it came back as 91.40% copper, 3.07% tin, .82% lead, .53% iron, .08% cobalt, and .82% sulphur. They have excavated a site in western Mexico where all points and arrowheads are 90% copper and 10% tin. There are Spanish accounts about how the natives knew how to use blow pipes to smelt gold, silver, and copper. It's all pretty interesting stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Stone Age savages…. not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 I will say that the recent postings on this thread are much more accurate and informative than the 2006 postings. I don't know if the IFIers are more knowledgable and more articulate but whatever it is IMO it is a good thing. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 I think our ability to do more internet searching is much more precise now than it was then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 We’ve came a long way since 2006 it’s true! but We still ain’t got no moon base and flying cars were supposed to be all rage by now… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 1999 was a very bad year for moon bases! Tho flying cars are almost a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 In 1990 something I watched an old Godzilla movie that said by the year 2020 we where gonna have daily rockets flying back an forth to the moon base, they are two years late an ain’t even started construction yet… An here MR Mighty Musk says he’s gonna colonize mars! How’s he gonna do that when he ain’t even built a Tesla charging station on the moon yet? i bet ford will beat him to it! Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 It's good to see that the operational security on our moon bases is still in effect----OOPS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Thomas you outta volunteer for the mars expedition! you already got plenty of red planet experience from living in New Mexico! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Nah, they are planning to pay folks an "annual salary" and most people don't check how long a Mars year is! Besides which, on the moon you can plink at satellites and they will just blame it on orbital trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWISTEDWILLOW Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 That’s a good point! It would be my Luck I’d get stationed at an remote outpost in a crater where I couldn’t get to do much but collect moon rocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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