History of American Indians and Forging

[HWooldridge]

Ironman,

I believe the commonly accepted timing for the immigrations would still put them in the Stone Age. In other words, people over the whole world were about equal in technology when the American Indians immigrated across the land bridge but they got lost with regard to technology enhancements. It's clear the Maya, Inca and Aztec societies were quite advanced in some ways but sadly lacking in others. The same basic thing happened with the aboriginal tribes of Australia - they somehow populated the country and then did not advance with time.

We sometimes tend to forget that the Renaissance was a very important period in the development of European culture and technology. Prior to that, most folks in that part of the world lived in squalid, brutal conditions. I think it was called the Dark Ages...

[Ferrous Beuler]

...And quite sadly, some folks who migrated here never developed a sense of humor... Dan :rolleyes:

[Mr Smith]

Well, now someone has brought up the Aborignal people of Australia, I reckon I'll chuck my $0.02 worth in again

BTW, I recommend anyone with a passing interest in this kind of history check out "Guns, Germs and Steel". It should be available from your local library.

The difference between Australian natives and American natives was the fact that Aborigines never adopted agriculture. Why? Well, Australia has one of the most unpredictable climates in the world. You can have droughts that last ten years, followed by a year or two of good growing conditions, then back to drought again. Agriculture never took off, because there was no way to guarantee a steady supply of food. Couple that with the fact that no native animals are suitable for domestication, and you have a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.
For the record, Aborigines *did* practice aquaculture, but it was not widespread.

Contrast that with Native Americans. The climate was reasonably temperate, allowing crops to grow reliably. The only difference between them and Europeans was the lack of domesticated animals, at least any suitable for pulling a plough.
As has already been mentioned, the Native Americans were doing quite nicely, thank you, with tools of stone and bone, so there was no pressure to discover new methods of toolmaking.

In short: Necessity is the mother of invention.

[ThomasPowers]

Alan, so they didn't forge since fire was a god but they used it to fire pots in kilns? Native American pottery is quite extensive and advanced.

I think your instructor's guess was a bit off.

Note that in south america the native americans did quite a bit of non-ferrous metalworking involving lost wax casting of silver and gold and even figured out a way to use platinum by depletion guilding.

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[FredW]

I've been following this thread with great interest and I finally have decided to chime in. There are theories of how the Native Americans got here, including walking across a land mass or frozen glacier over the Bearing Straits and there is a theory that they came from Asian explorers who sailed across the ocean. The latter is starting to gain in favor. The Clovis theory I guess you would call it, says they came here around 16,000 years ago. The clovis, by the way, is an eliptical or cigar shaped stone spear point. The theory about the Asians coming over in a boat, I think says they came here about 30,000 years ago. But if you ask a Native American they will tell they have always been here. Being a decendent of Native Americans and German I prefer to think they have always been here.

There are probably as many theories to why the Native Americans did not take up forging and smelting as there are archaeoligists, however the Central and South Americans did forge and work precious metals such as gold and silver. Shoot that's why the Europeans tried to kill them off at first (got xxxx close in the West Indies), later it was because of fear and ignorance.

To answer your question, and I am not an expert, I would say they didn't forge iron or copper because it wasn't necessary. They were flourishing without it.

Wants some information on Native Americans. Google "Wounded Knee" and "Trail of Tears."

Fred

[Woody]

Fired clay pots were more indiginous to the Indian tribes of the Southwest, first the Anasazi (Ancient Ones) who built the pueblos like Mesa Verde. Then later the Navaho, Hopi, Pima, etc. They not only made pottery, they painted it with intircate designs too. Farther south, the Aztecs and Incas were skilled in working gold. The reason they never worked iron is because they had no knowledge of it until the white man came. The Native Americans were stone age people until we came along.

Woody

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[FredW]

That is an incredible view. Wish I had the same here in north Missouri. I think that if Native Americans were left alone and given the technology of smelting iron they still would not have progressed with it as fast as the Europeans because they were much more into their culture than whites. They also had a great deal more respect for the land and their environment and tended to be more simbiotic than Europeans. Though there were a lot of tribes just as prone to conflict as Europeans and that does tend to speed up technological development.

Fred

[irnsrgn]

This Thread is interesting to say the least, it just boils down to the fact that when two completely different cultures clash, the one with the more modern technology usually prevailes. The native Americans resisted change and although they may have had a better family orientated society, the inability to change or to evolve got most of them in the end. The were just fine fighting amongst themselves until the white man came along and introduced them to things they could not make themselves (iron knives, axes ,firearms etc.).

Had they been introduced gradually to the iron age over many years as the white peoples were, things might have been different.

Remember that a lot of the technology of the white race came from the asians (chinese). And a lot of the wars in Europe and Asia were basically over technology.

Every time their is a war Technology takes a big step forward, usually in the form of furthering the ability to kill the enemy, which is later adapted to everyday life.

just my 2¢ worth.

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[irnsrgn]

I guess you never heard of the Flint Hills in Kansas, one of the Great deposists of flint, and like the Pipestone of Minnesota, it was traded among the different tribes.

Europe has great deposits of Coal especially Germany, that is what made it possible for Germany to be such Great Armourers. It was oil they needed to fuel the war machine, that they lacked.

[Woody]

I find it ironic that the indian crying at the sight of litter, his name was Iron Eyes Cody, was actually an Italian character actor who had changed his name and had no Native American Blood. He had a long career in Holywood playing Native Americans in the movies.

Woody

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[sandpile]

ALAN-- After reading all the post on this forging in regards to the natives.

The people of Europe had gathered up in towns and established villages for hundreds of years. This required that they had a steady source of food and other neccessities. Therefore the need for agriculture was born. A lot of the inventions that have come down through the years--have come as the result of agriculture needs.

The Natives of America with the exception of the five cilvilized tribes and the Central American tribes that probably came by way of boats, did not congregate. The tribes stayed to them selves for the most part and had very little trading of the known skills. All advances on new and improved items came from the simple fact that one stumbled on to something and someone else improved on it. The mid-west farmers in our era are prove of this.

I have had quite some dealings with the different tribes in the Southwest and believe me they are not DUMB. Some of the stuff they produce are stunning in their design and workmanship. Had they been where they could make use of the interacting in the concentrated population as the Europeans were. They would have developed a smithing industry.

There was not a need as they did very little farming, just enough for their own small groups. No Ox or horses to tear up their tools. No need for hinges on aTeepee. Grin

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Kinda fits the subject.

chuck

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[ThomasPowers]

I guess you never heard of the Flint Hills in Kansas, one of the Great deposists of flint, and like the Pipestone of Minnesota, it was traded among the different tribes.

Europe has great deposits of Coal especially Germany, that is what made it possible for Germany to be such Great Armourers. It was oil they needed to fuel the war machine, that they lacked.

Ahhh of course iron wasn't smelted with coal until the late 1700's when Abraham Darby figured it out in England.

Blacksmiths didn't start using coal until the high to late middle ages and even then charcoal was preferred since the sulfur in coal weakens iron and steel that absorbs it.

So I guess you mean to say that although places like Insbruck and Nurnberg were famed for their armour making when charcoal was still used, when the industrial revolution started they had the necessary raw materials toi become famous for their armanent industry---cf "The Arms of Krupp" "Cathedral Forge and Water Wheel".

Thomas

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I just stumbled upon this thread and thought, it is so interesting maybe others will enjoy and add new info/thoughts.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Wow that Alan DuBoff guy whoever he was sure didn’t have much need for input!  Lol

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I figured it was his/her way of bumping the thread, which is frowned upon now.

I got to thinking about my early days as a pup, and my interaction with the Seminole Indian tribe down in Dania Florida.  Think the mid '50s to early '60s. I was a hunting buddy with Jimmy Jumper III whose Great Grandfather was a Seminole Chief John Jumper in the mid/late 1800s.

At the reservation there were remnants of what could be called a forge. A small anvil was in one of the chickee's which was still being used making some of the most gorgeous jewelry I have ever seen. Also what looked like a fire pit that the addition of bellows would make a good forge.

Jimmy had a knife to die for that he said was made by the tribe and passed down for generations. It pretty much looked like a fancy butcher knife with silver and bone handles (scales). He could field dress a Key deer faster than anyone else I knew.

 

[George N. M.]

Interesting thread but some of the posters were pretty unsure, if not down right wrong, about the history of the peopling of the Americas and Native American history.  I was interested to see that the only survivor of that thread who is still with us is Thomas.  I hope that he will be here for at least another 15+ years.

Since smelting matal from ore, particularly iron, is a pretty advanced technique it was a lot easier to get pre-smelted metal from the Europeans.  Around here you see examples of iron arrowheads cut from wagon tires or barrel bands.

There was also no mention of the Old Copper Culture which made copper implements from native copper from the Lake Superior area.  Various copper items, decorative and utilitarian were traded as far as the mound building cultures in OK, OH. and the Mississippi Valley.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[JHCC]

In his memoirs, my great-grandfather describes throwing away a broken sawblade in the Alaskan village where he was the Episcopal priest, and how the natives promptly turned it into knives. I still have one of them.

[anvil]

Yup, A lot of "down right wrong" in this thread. 

I've been curious about the same thing,,, why no iron age in the Americas. The actual process of making iron from ore is not really rocket science. I can't imagine that when the Vikings were smelting bog iron in Nova Scotia that there weren't many inquiring eyes watching the process. There's a world of difference between Understanding vs monkey see monkey do, but with a little "do diligence"  the end product can be the same. Just thinking of my auto mechanics skills. Given a manual and a few people to ask, I can "turn" a wrench, but I'm certainly not a "Wrench". If you are good with a stone axe, it doesn't take much to see just how much better an iron axe takes down a tree. Then seeing the process for making the needed material, iron, should be an easy association. No matter what, a missed big time AH HA moment.

What a great alternative history if the Nova Scotia natives had picked up and passed on the iron age. Imagine the surprise the 1492 folks would have had when confronted with an American evolved 300 year old, or so unique iron age.

Does anybody know if the Vikings traded furs for iron tools with the locals?

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Not really ancient history but There’s some Cherokees here in Eastern Oklahoma that have been forging frog an fish gigs for several generations

there’s a couple Cherokee smiths that were or are national treasures to the nation,

[Charles R. Stevens]

Common wisdom is that the native/first nations people were on the cusp of the Bronze Age (copper, silver, gold and platinum) and the Greenlanders were in effect driven off by the First Nations population of Nova Scotia. So tho early trading was was possible no evidence of trading trading has come to light. This is not to say that it didn’t happen but that evidence hasn’t been found. 
cupple that with a few hundred years of propaganda from the “winners” (they say that they write the history books) evidence may well be lost history, buried under hundreds of years of alien iron artifacts. Face it, the French, Spanish and English immigrates as well as natives and African forced immigrants get almost all the press, wile we hear almost nothing about Asian and middle eastern and others. 500 years of Western Europeans writing the history books. 
might take another 1/2 a millennia to find any evidence of pre contact non Nordic iron working.