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I Forge Iron

whats so special about anvils anyway?


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What else is a dead horse good for? We're having fun, right?

Now this has merit: If ya can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with. I just got rid of my 50lb Little Giant in favor of an air hammer. So go figure. Iron Kiss Forever! But I can do just fine with anything.

Oh yeah: Anvil.

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They wasn't into doing it for the zen, but for the threepenny bit at the end of the week, or it could have been a token from the owners so the could trade it for stuff from the owners shops, that was the reality, not the romantic version. It was bl***y hard graft.

You could tell how long someone had worked in some of these places by the amount of digits left on their hands.



With you on that John. A lot of workers were mutilated because it was cheaper than the cost of anything approaching health and safety. I know a lot of people can be down on that stuff but the more you dig up the past the more you hear of horrific but easily prevented injuries, usually in persuit of another man's profit. I really don't buy into that rose tinted naive romantic notion of the past that a lot of people seem to have.
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A trained MIG welder will produce excellent quality welds. I have MIG welded steel, copper, silicon bronze, stainless steel and cupro-nickle. You will find that in industry almost no one uses arc welders anymore. Arc welders advantages are they work well, they are cheap you can weld outside and if you know what you are doing the welds are as strong as a weld can be. I am sure they hold there own in certain specalized niches. But they are slower to use than mig ,require more skill to use and require the flux to be removed after each pass.



Gentlemen, gentlemen ..... gentlemen. ..... Can we please get back to the topic of mutilating anvils
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Anyone who pines for the "good old days" and the ways they worked back then should go to work as a cowboy, in the mines or oil field or join the Infantry.That will cure that kind of thinking in a smooth hurry.

BTW-If money is your primary focus then buy the parts from China and mig weld them together to make the quick and dirty money.
If craftsmanship and pride in worksmanship is your focus then you generally have to make or modify what you can find to fit your style and approach.
"If it was easy the Girl Scouts would be doing it and we`d all be relegated to going door to door selling cookies" as one of my 1st Sgts used to say.

I had an earlier and longer post typed up but we lost power before I could send it.This love fest is gettin` kinda fun,thanks for firing the first shot Cap`n and also thanks for risin` to the bait there Southie.

Anvil,and the mutilation there of. B)

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I shall surmise my argument.
I feel that the older anvils should be preserved in as close to original condition as possible. I would classify this sort of anvil as a wrought iron bodied steel faced anvil or a cast iron steel faced anvil and some of the later solid steel forged anvils like later hay-buddens. The anvils are made by processes that will never be reproduced. The factories, skilled workers and know how that produced them no longer exists. In the case of wrought iron anvils the materials used is not really available any more. Furthermore the workers sacrificed their health and safety making them. They produced tools that have lasted 100 or more years. These anvils represent the core of our craft. They have been handed down to us by the generations of smiths who preceded us. When they were new they were just tools but I suggest that after generations of use they have become more than that. I feel we should use them with respect and care. I am not saying put them in your living room. If you feel you can properly repair a trashed anvil worn out from years of hard use I say do it. But don't willfully damage them by doing shoddy repairs of unnecessary modifications is in my opinion just sad. Its like tearing down a beautiful old building because it had a good location. I also think certain anvils should not be repaired in anyway and not used. I would classify these as extremely rare trade specific anvils like cutlers anvils and the like. Very early hornless anvils and colonial anvils. Anvils of very rare makes like my Samson anvil. We should just leave these alone. Now I feel that what Youngdylan did is just fine because his anvil has little or no historic value. It being a mid 20th century cast steel anvil of a brand that is still made.

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I shall surmise my argument.
I feel that the older anvils should be preserved in as close to original condition as possible. I would classify this sort of anvil as a wrought iron bodied steel faced anvil or a cast iron steel faced anvil and some of the later solid steel forged anvils like later hay-buddens. The anvils are made by processes that will never be reproduced. The factories, skilled workers and know how that produced them no longer exists. In the case of wrought iron anvils the materials used is not really available any more. Furthermore the workers sacrificed their health and safety making them. They produced tools that have lasted 100 or more years. These anvils represent the core of our craft. They have been handed down to us by the generations of smiths who preceded us. When they were new they were just tools but I suggest that after generations of use they have become more than that. I feel we should use them with respect and care. I am not saying put them in your living room. If you feel you can properly repair a trashed anvil worn out from years of hard use I say do it. But don't willfully damage them by doing shoddy repairs of unnecessary modifications is in my opinion just sad. Its like tearing down a beautiful old building because it had a good location. I also think certain anvils should not be repaired in anyway and not used. I would classify these as extremely rare trade specific anvils like cutlers anvils and the like. Very early hornless anvils and colonial anvils. Anvils of very rare makes like my Samson anvil. We should just leave these alone. Now I feel that what Youngdylan did is just fine because his anvil has little or no historic value. It being a mid 20th century cast steel anvil of a brand that is still made.

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My feeling is you all probably feel a lot closer to the same than your letting on. Mr YoungDylan must like nostalgia and the thought of old bits of machinery because in a recent thread he posted some fantastic photos he snapped on a motorcycle ride with that very local as a destination.. If he didnt see the value of the old bits then why go or think to take the pictures? :P I think you guys just want to argue... which is fine, your big boys and can do as you please...

I am biased... My dad has been collecting, restoring and generally just in love with old farm machinery... If you have never been around it, it could seem like a silly thing. I have told several "city" folks about his old single cylinder engines and tractors and got the squinty eyed tilted head stare. :unsure::blink: I can understand why the thought of an old implement being a coveted and valuable object could be strange to some... On the surface it does seem a bit odd... Until you have been around some of the beautiful and fascinating machines... and even then it still takes a certain type of person to appreciate. When I was a teenager I didnt understand it.. I look around at this 10,000 sq foot shop of my dads filled with rusty old junk that I knew he paid big money for... What I saw was a shop that for the same amount of dough could be filled with hot rods or motorcycles or SOMETHING besides rusty old tractors... I didnt get it... Now I am fascinated by the old machinery, the history and the providence I think I understand what both sides of this argument is about.... And I think they both have merit... I dont agree that all anvils built before 1945 are sacred and hallowed objects... But I would say that if a really beautiful and rare anvil is found in a barn someplace maybe its best use is not to be handed over to a beginning smith who's first thought is to take an angle grinder to it and carve it up because he saw this bloke on the internet do it & so it better suits him (if he does, and its his... so be it... Im just saying there are plenty of "working" anvils to go around, there is no shortage contrary to what the cheap skates who wont pay more than 1$ will tell you) What I am saying is its because of people like Tim... and like my dad... that see that the value of the object as an object might be higher than that of its usefulness as a tool... And that the preservation of interesting and unique bits of our history is a meaningful and rewarding pursuit.... That doesn't mean I think that a guy in Texas with 678 anvils in a warehouse is doing us a favor exactly... What it does mean is having an attachment to block of iron because of the romanticism and history does not make you a nutjob.. It ties you to the past, the present and the future..... If you carve it up to suit you... well it makes you a blacksmith.... :)

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So what's the best way to weld up a anvil anyhows? Mig or rod, I personally like it when you can just brush the flux off with the back of your glove. Has that been covered here before?

i mig welded my anvil that somebody used for a torch holder so far has held up fine
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I relate this somewhat to firearms. Me, I leave the dents, and dings in them as testament to their use in battles around the globe, it shows that they were used, and not sitting on a rack during some of the greatest conflicts the world has ever seen. The condition makes you wonder who carried it, and where has it been over its life.

My friend is more practical in his views of his firearms. Instead of blueing he Parkerizes just about everything. He'll cut them , paint them, mount stuff on them, whatever he wants to make them fit his needs. I do see his side of it, and if I have a firearm that was mismatched parts, or otherwise not a collectible I would change things up.

In the U.S. gun values are highest for unrestored specimens. SAA Colts are valued by the percentage of case colors that remain.

In England it was not uncommon for firearms, like SAA Colts, to be reblued, or otherwise refinished to keep their looks up without reducing their value there.

Funny how firearms here are preferred left alone, yet collectible cars are worth more fully restored-even with reproduction parts.

As for anvils, yes they are just tools in the end. I have a 1906/7 Fisher, 1920 HB, 1928? Sodefors, a Vulcan, a newer JHM, and the newest one is an unidentified old 50#. They are all in good shape, so I may just dress the corners with some radius. The JHM has turning cams that may come in handy for bending bars, and it already has a thinner heel. I would have no problem modifying the Vulcan. The old ones have survived this long in good shape, so I couldn't see whacking them up any. Besides I am just a hobbyist at the moment. There are plenty of $1+/- a pounders around anyway. Matter of fact all of my anvils were in that range, and they have been purchased from the mid 80's up till this past year.

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My feeling is you all probably feel a lot closer to the same than your letting on. Mr YoungDylan must like nostalgia and the thought of old bits of machinery because in a recent thread he posted some fantastic photos he snapped on a motorcycle ride with that very local as a destination.. If he didnt see the value of the old bits then why go or think to take the pictures? :P I think you guys just want to argue... which is fine, your big boys and can do as you please...



OK Larry you got me banged to right their, it's a a fair cop ....... I do love old machinery/tools. Metalworking dominates my life (too much at times). I've got a lot a LOT of respect for the engineering pioneers and innovators and what they came up with, especially as South says they didn't have any form of electrically welding, CNC cutting, tool and alloy steel, bandsaws etc etc etc.

That said, as you've probably noticed, I love being provacative, playing devils advocate, being tong (pun) in cheek etc etc etc. Provided things don't over heat, I think it's generally a good thing to push boundarys with debate, if we simply accepted the current "wisdom" there'd be no change PERIOD. That said I've also got bucket loads of repect for the experience of a time served 30-40 year on the job guy. The EXPERIENCE of those sort of guys carries much more to me weight than some know it all newbie. All to often I fall in to the later camp.

I WOULD generally respect an old anvil but it's a question of where to you draw the line. (I can't believe I'm saying that). That 52 Brooks of mine ain't anything special (as South loves letting me know :D ) What happens if everyone did what I did, they'd be a lot of people cursing me in 200 years from now. Me? if there's a judgement call to make I'll always go for use over history. If we simply kept things the same that is all that would happen. Those Victorian engineers/innovators we all respect wouldn't have hesitated for a second at chopping up the past.

There was a serious point to my post. Grinding a bit of the side to sharpen up a bit of edge is WAY easier than refacing. Also that "bit on end" is incredibly useful. I kinda hope someone will try it and testify. If I were to make/design my own customized anvil I'd have that bit on it. On a London pattern it's a bit of a dead corner that don't get used for much.
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Yes proper methods/rods for welding up damaged anvils has been covered about once a week for *years* here! I suggest you search on the topic and get ready for a lot of reading. I prefer Rob Gunter's method and have seen it used and how the results have held up for over a dozen years.

Several ways folks go wrong: no preheat! Wrong alloy!---most hardfacing alloys are NOT what you want but folks seem to use them without checking them out first. And a big one---milling the face down; especially doing so without milling the base parallel to the face *FIRST*!

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There have been thousands of anvils made since the dawn of their creation and I'm sure there are plenty left out there to modify for personal use, just look at the number of them that appear monthly on eBay. There are also large quantities of good quality new anvils being manufactured in Turkey, China, the European Union countries and North America, so I don't anticipate that any time soon there will be a shortage of anvils, perhaps inexpensive ones, but not anvils, they are not going to disappear. There will continue to be anvil shaped objects by the thousands made in China, Mexico and other countries but those are not of concern here. My personal feeling is that the majority of old anvils are adequate for most of us to use as is, they function adequately for most any of our standard smithing operations, but there are times they do not. It is upon these occasions that the owner has a perfect right to do with his property what he wishes and desires. An anvil is not a living being no matter how much some of us would like to imbue them with a living soul they do not have one, anvils are only inert metal until we strike hot steel on them. If they don't meet our needs we as individual humans are bound by our innate tool making desires and needs to modify them to our own personal needs. It is a gift from our Creator, act up to it fully. :blink:

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