iknowablacksmith Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Hello. As my user name suggests, i am not a blacksmith.....but i know one. And he has a problem. Well, he has lots of problems.....but don't tell him i said that. He is trying to recreate a small 18th Century iron item (a toaster) that has no documentation, and is put together in a way that has so far remained a mystery to him. He - Terry Connor - is the resident Blacksmith at Kings Landing Historical Settlement, located at Prince William, N.B., which is about 35 kilometers from Fredericton, where i live. He does not have a computer or internet access. I do. I also have several photos of the item in question, showing the "problem area" in detail. Neither he nor i have access to the item at present, but i have the photos and my own memories, and i can always call Mr. Connor to ask for more information should it be necessary. So my question is this: how should i go about submitting this mystery to the forum? I want to follow all the proper procedures and protocols, so i figured i should ask here before proceeding. So please let me know where i should post this, what kind of limits i should observe w.r.t. images, and everything else i should know. Any assistance you may be able to offer will be *greatly* appreciated. Thank you. - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irnsrgn Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 480 by 640 jpg about 50 kb is normal, just go to manage attachments when posting or editing your present post.http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f20/adding-images-your-posts-1732/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodforge Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Welcome to the forum, may I direct your attention to: http://www.iforgeiron.com/Blueprints_200-300/p2_articleid/221 Is this kind of what you are looking for ? If not, post some pictures someone here should be able to help. Cheers Jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 Thank you both. I will select and resize some photos tomorrow, and post them here. The toaster is somewhat different. More than anything it looks like an old arch bridge. You'll see shortly. Thanks again. - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 Hello. I am redirecting this from the "Introduce Yourself" section, and this seems a better place for "my" problem. I am not a blacksmith.....but i know one. And he has quite a mystery on his hands. He is trying to recreate a small 18th Century iron item (a toaster) that has no documentation, and has not encountered anything quite like this before. He - Terry Connor - is the resident Blacksmith at Kings Landing Historical Settlement, located at Prince William, N.B., Canada, which is about 35 kilometers from Fredericton, where i live. He does not have a computer or internet access. I do. I also have several photos of the item in question, showing the "problem area" in detail. Neither he nor i have access to the item at present, but i have the photos and my own memories, and i can always call Mr. Connor to ask for more information should it be necessary. As this is my first post with an attachment, i will submit a general view of the toaster itself, so you can have an idea what i am trying to describe. If i manage not to screw that up, i will submit pictures - and descriptions - of the area he's having problems with. Thank any and all for any assistance you may be able to offer. - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 G'day! Not sure what it is you're asking here, and how much you know about these, but I *have* seen a set of plans for one of these before, In a 'smithing newsletter. Maybe someone else can remember exactly where... Basically, it comes in two parts, the upper part and the stand. Bread is put in between the uprights, then the upper freely rotates around the stand, allowing bread to be toasted on both sides, in front of a fire. As to a practical standpoint, I would say the decorative parts of the upper are joined via tenons, and the upper riveted to the stand. That's how *I* would do it, anyway. If you'd like more info, let me know! Best of luck, anyway! Here's a link! Cordless Toasters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 Ok, that worked. So here it goes. The problem is this: how are the curved parts attached to the base plate? (Please excuse my lack of blacksmithing vocabulary. I am most definitely a fish out of water, here!) The semi-circular elements started out as 3/16" square bars (or rods, or whatever they should be called) that were twisted in the manner shown. The base plate seems to be about the same thickness. Holes were drilled into it to accept the semi-circular elements. But how are they attached? How was the item held or clamped in order to "flatten" the ends of the semi-circular elements? These elements show no signs of clamp marks. If they were mounted while hot, how did they retain their shape? Or were only the ends heated, and then hammered? Why don't i shut up and let you look at the pictures? I will be checking back regularly to see if anyone has any ideas. The original photos are of much higher resolution, and if there is anything you would like to see in more detail, please just ask. I hope someone out there has an idea about how this was done! Thank you. - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 The semi circular pieces have a tenon formed on the end of them. There are holes punched in the base, then countersunk. The tenon passes through, then the end is riveted. This means it is rivited as per usual, but sits flush with the base. Next question! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 Mr. Smith! Thank you for your reply, and thank you for the link you provided. The "18th Century Wrought Iron Hearth Toaster from Pennsylvania" is *very* close to the one in question.....and since a large number of the early settlers in New Brunswick were Loyalists from Pennsylvania, this may well have been its point of origin (or, at least, the point of origin of its builder). This is ammunition for more research, certainly! - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 The semi circular pieces have a tenon formed on the end of them. There are holes punched in the base, then countersunk. The tenon passes through, then the end is riveted. This means it is rivited as per usual, but sits flush with the base. Next question! Thank you for this. But is there any chance you can dumb down the description a little more? I will have to describe this to the blacksmith over the telephone.....and the better i understand it the better i'll be able to help him. (In your vast bag of links, is there anything that could be applicable? You know, something along the lines of "Riveting For Morons"?????) - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBrown Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 this is for something larger but the princapal is the same just scale it downhttp://www.iforgeiron.com/Blueprints_100-200/p2_articleid/320 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 this is for something larger but the princapal is the same just scale it downhttp://www.iforgeiron.com/Blueprints_100-200/p2_articleid/320 Thank you. I think i could actually follow most of that. Any idea how they could have done it in 18th Century Pennsylvania? The tools my blacksmith friend will have access to (either at Kings Landing or at his home shop) are "traditional" (i.e. old, or reproductions of the old-style designs), and he wants to recreate the toaster in as authentic a manner as possible. What could they have used in place of the "holding dog" in this description? - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBrown Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 i would use my vice or make a jig to hold it in place while the tenons are smashed down. if he does not have accesss to a torch it will be slow going heat tenon clamp positon the plate and set the end of the tenon. i would make shure they all line up with the holes befor seting them. if he is worryd about maring the arches use acouple blocks of wood in the jaws of the vice. or he could forge the holding dogs as shown in the demo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 i would use my vice or make a jig to hold it in place while the tenons are smashed down. if he does not have accesss to a torch it will be slow going heat tenon clamp positon the plate and set the end of the tenon. i would make shure they all line up with the holes befor seting them. if he is worryd about maring the arches use acouple blocks of wood in the jaws of the vice. or he could forge the holding dogs as shown in the demo Excellent. That helps a lot. I am not sure if he has a torch, but i suspect he has something like that. The blocks of wood in the jaws of the vice makes a lot of sense. I will be calling the blacksmith later today. I will pass on what i have learned so far, and if he has any questions i'll be back here with them. Thanks heaps! - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 There is a plan for making a toaster in one of the issues of "Early American Life" from the 1970's IIRC. Another possible methos of supporting the plate while riviting would be to make a hardy tool that stands up with a slot for the arches to fit. A quick and dirty method would be to take some square stock and bend it back onto itself with a space the thickness you want to leave open for the arches to pass and then forge the bend end to fit the hardy hole. Remember if they are trying to make it *exactly* like the original to use real wrought iron and not mild steel! Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 There is a plan for making a toaster in one of the issues of "Early American Life" from the 1970's IIRC. Another possible methos of supporting the plate while riviting would be to make a hardy tool that stands up with a slot for the arches to fit. A quick and dirty method would be to take some square stock and bend it back onto itself with a space the thickness you want to leave open for the arches to pass and then forge the bend end to fit the hardy hole. Remember if they are trying to make it *exactly* like the original to use real wrought iron and not mild steel! Thomas Does that magazine still exist? I wonder if they would have back issues.....? When you say a "hardy tool", is this the name of an actual device, or is it just a tool that is "hardy"? (Remember: moron, here!) I saw the base plate he is going to use, and it was most definitely iron. I assume he will be using iron for the arches.....but i'll be sure to mention that, anyway. Continuing thanks! - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irnsrgn Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 I hate to throw a monkey wrench in, but riveting is the process of joining two pieces with a rivet, to make them fast or held together the rivet end opposite the head is bradded to form a head. The parts in question on the toaster could have been been bradded very easily with a small cross pein riveting hammer. This is one of the first lessons I learned during my apprenticeship as we did a lot of riveting pieces of wood together with a burr or close fitting washer on the rivet end that was bradded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 It looks like we're getting there! I'm gonna try and draw up a plan of how *I* would approach making one of these, and post it later on (Tuesday AM). The square hole in the anvil is the "hardy hole", therefore any tool that fits into this hole is a "hardy tool". Not sure on the linguistic origins of the name, though :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 It looks like we're getting there! I'm gonna try and draw up a plan of how *I* would approach making one of these, and post it later on (Tuesday AM). The square hole in the anvil is the "hardy hole", therefore any tool that fits into this hole is a "hardy tool". Not sure on the linguistic origins of the name, though Please do! And thank you! I'll be checking back tomorrow (i think i am about 11 hours behind you.....at least until the clocks change!), and for as long as this takes. (Thanks for the "hardy tool" explanation, too!) Cheers! - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Here you go! This is how *I* would approach the making of one of these. All comments / additions, suggestions - I know there'll be plenty - please add your $0.02 worth, guys. Apologies for the image quality - I knocked this up in about 15 min :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 ......vegemite.....LMAO!!!! I've still got 7/8ths of a jar in my 'esky', might I suggest if you try it that you spread it VERY thinly, otherwise it's an aqquired taste. Great source of vitamins though. As to the toaster your friend will want to heat the 'tenon' part of the arches to make flattening them into the counter sunk holes in the baseplate easier. If he's not using big stock it should be possible to do them cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 G'day Ian! If you've got that much left, I guess you found some Aerogard, eh?? :-) Yeah.. as Ian said... Id fit all the tenons, then lay the whole thing flat in the fire... heat up the tenon ends of the arches, then pein away! Like I say... add your $0.02 worth... it all helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowablacksmith Posted October 17, 2006 Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 G'day Ian! If you've got that much left, I guess you found some Aerogard, eh?? :-) Yeah.. as Ian said... Id fit all the tenons, then lay the whole thing flat in the fire... heat up the tenon ends of the arches, then pein away! Like I say... add your $0.02 worth... it all helps! Mr. Smith - and all - thank you *hugely* for this. I believe you have hit the nail squarely on the head, here. (How am i doing with blacksmithing terms? Still need some work?) I have been unable to reach my blacksmith friend as yet, but once i have i will report back in. I do believe he is going to be impressed! (That diagram was absolutely first-rate! I will print him off a copy, plus all the text that has been contributed so far.) Cheers! (And, odd as it may seem, i *do* have a jar of Vegemite in my refrigerator!) - Lincoln - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Russell Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Vegemite AUSSIE'S takin' over the world 1 step at a time Dale Russell ( aka ) chopper p.s Ian , spread it " thin " ? That might be the reason youse still got 7/8's of a jar in youse " Esky " mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Linconl, Here is something may be of interest on ebay Item number: 150046410240 ... WROUGHT IRON TOASTER PLANS BLACKSMITH It looked neat thought it might help TIM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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