Building New Shop---different from Prior Post

[jgourlay]

Like the previous poster, I'm planning on building a new "shop". I'm not, however, going to dignify the structure by calling it a "shop". It's going to be more like purpose driven shed built for smiithing. Please understand I'm not doing any blacksmithing yet: this will be an adjunct to my main hobby (woodworking) which I hope to turn into a "beer money" business sometime in the next 5 to 10. I'm a "long view" kind of guy, and want to start building the infrastructure for smithing knowing it'll be a couple of years before I'm totally setup.

My intent is to build a 4x4 structure with steel siding. Max power available will be 30A@240vac. The shed will share space with a compressor (standup 60). So one consideration is how far does the compressor have to be set back away from everything else so the tank doesn't get hot and 'splode. To the extent possible, my intent is build it to be (re)movable so that if I move I can pack the structure up with me.

I don't intend on smithing anything larger than an adze, mostly chisels and other woodworking tools. Maybe some corners strap and other cabinetry "tansu" type hardware. For tools, I know I'll need a forge but I don't want to decide at this point whether gas or coke. I'll be picking up one of the larger anvils in the 300lb range, and then of course the various tools, two grinders or a grinder and belt sander. I have a drill press, it won't be in this shed. I do want room for a trip hammer, the one from Centaur, and a pottery kiln that will serve as a heat treat oven. I also want room for a helper (or witness, depending on the circumstance ) I won't need this shed for raw material storage: I can store and break down material in my garage.

What I need to know is what you all believe the absolute minimum size should be for the shed, and the shape (ie. square, long?). I'm limited to 9 or MAYBE ten feet height on the structure. Also, I'd like some advice on ventilation. I have good bit of material from scrounging around in the oil patch, and may want to casually bang around on some of the pieces. My concern is with carbon monoxide and the attendant compounds (nickel carbonele esp.).

Lighting: roof made of clear plastic (polycarb or fiberglass) or "half walls" where the bottom 4 feet are solid, and the top half can slide down exposing free air? Flooring: is a dirt (ie. the ground) floor acceptable with maybe a pad for the trip hammer, or does it need to be concrete? How about sand over brick, with a small pad for the trip hammer? Also, is it reasonable to have ONLY the forge, anvil, and heat treat proximate to each other with the grinding in the garage? What I mean by the question is, do you do all or most of the forging in one chunk of time, and the all the grinding in another, or are you back and forth between anvil, forge, and grinder quite frequently? What is the right way to secure the "stump" to the "floor" so the anvil doesn't fall over and crush your legs (or your children)?

[Alan DuBoff]

Please understand I'm not doing any blacksmithing yet: this will be an adjunct to my main hobby (woodworking) which I hope to turn into a "beer money" business sometime in the next 5 to 10.

Ditto for me, and I am a tad ahead of you Joe, but you're not very far behind me. I was lucky to find an instructor close to me that is very reasonable, and start learning under him in a couple weeks.

I have an anvil, but not as heavy a one as you plan, mine is a 134# Peter Wright. It's a little tired, but will get me going. My instructor has a few anvils as well, and his smithy is excellent, and a very old and traditional smithy, which is located at a historical farm.

I don't intend on smithing anything larger than an adze, mostly chisels and other woodworking tools. Maybe some corners strap and other cabinetry "tansu" type hardware. For tools, I know I'll need a forge but I don't want to decide at this point whether gas or coke.

This seems to be a bit exreme to replace your broken Stanley chisel which you damaged over at the Homestead Heritage School of Woodworking!

I'm gonna do a drawknife before a chisel, since a drawknife looks easier. I'm actually thinking to use a planer knife for it, since it's already got the edge on it. My new instructor has done a lot of that type of stuff, and you can see some of it on his website, Ardenwood Forge, I start there in a couple weeks.

For this type of stuff you really don't need much space and a small 6'x6' space could work. You really just need a small forge and an anvil, with a small vise. Others here can tell you better than me, since I'm not far ahead of you, but I'm planning to setup my smithy outside. The more you want, the more space you need, so a trip hammer will require space. You might consider a post/leg vise before that, after you get an anvil.

Good luck on your venture, please let us know how you progress.

Ok, I'll shut my big mouth and let the folks that know what they're doing give you advice! :p

[GobblerForge]

Wow. Where to start? Lots of good questions, and lucky for you, I have lots of opinions. I think you can put a working forge, anvil, post vice and small work bench in an area 10 feet square and have room for tools as well. If you are not planning to do anything bigger than an adz, then you shouldn't need a three hundred pound anvil. A one hundred to one-fifty will do that for you. As far as the air tank, far as you can. But consider this. A forge can make a lot of heat but in a small place. A well protected forge with some sort of heat shields twards combustables will not offer heat enough to warm YOU five feet away on a cold day. I've seen water freeze four feet from the forge. The forge hood keeps a negative preasure on a closed shop so you need to leave a door cracked or a window open a little. Unless you aredrawing smoke into the shop, the air is constantly circulating. The power hammer might be a while comming so don't worry about a pad for it. A dirt floor is perfect for blacksmithing. It's better than concrete as long as it's dry. The anvil can be mounted on a stump that sits on the floor or is buried in the floor. As long as it's stable. Mine is on a stump that sits on the floor and I have no problems. Grind anywhere you want. I don't use a bench grinder myself, I prefer a hand grinder, but you are not going to be grinding on hot metal so there are no restrictions there. Lighting doesn't appear to be a problem with your plan. You only need enough to see everything in the shop and to be safe. The darker in the shop, the better you can see the steel. You can get used to almost anything but direct sunlight is the worst.
Gobbler

[wlbrown]

SIR,
as i said in my post to another member, you can
never have too much space. build it as big as you
can afford.
you do not say where you are from, but insulation
in the walls, and roof will be a plus for summer, and
winter. i also suggest you go with a high amps
electric box, at least 100 amps. you will add more
things that need power as time goes by.
i have a 30 X 50 shop, that is air conditioned, but
not heated. in the past i have used a kerosene heater,
55,000 btu. i ran this for about an hour, and then shut
it off. i can work without my coat for quite awhile. i have
the back 10ft boxed in, and insulated. i have my computer
in one side, and a bathroom in the other side. i heat these
areas with a small electric heater, and it is very cozy.
good luck with your project.
wlbrown
wright city, mo.

[jgourlay]

"
This seems to be a bit exreme to replace your broken Stanley chisel which you damaged over at the Homestead Heritage School of Woodworking! "

I see you know me!!!

That class really did wonders for me in terms of my confidence and things I'm willing to tackle. I find now that many things are easier. What was your experience with it?

What perversity of character is it that forces us to want to make things ourselves? I don't understand, and I haven't been able to fight it, so there it is, I might as well go where it takes me!

:p

[jgourlay]

WL and Gobbler, thanks for the reply. Insulation in summer won't be a problem because I won't be doing any smithing work in summer. Woodworking, maybe, but not smithing. In winter, well, we don't have winter here. Sometimes we get fall for a week in late January.

Thanks for advice on the anvil size. I had always just heard that bigger was better. Glad the dirt floor will work.

If you draw a circle, putting your anvil in the center, what is the minimum of radius of the circle for you to be able to work safely and comfortably?

[Swamp Fox]

The forge, anvil and vise should be within one step of the center of your circle, otherwise you will have more mileage on you than a '57 Chevy. The power hammer should be two steps away and everything arranged so there is a clear path in and out.

Set the forge, anvil, and vise out in the yard and forge a couple of weekends. Move things about till your comfortable then take notes of the locations. Plan now on how to get the smoke out of the building and where to locate the chimney. That will locate the forge, which will locate the anvil, vise and well you get the idea.

If you have ever seen a working blacksmith shop, you will find a lot of dust and fine powered dirt, swarf, etc. Air compressors do not like dust, move it outside or to a closed closet with outside air intakes. And you may want to put the air compressor on a dedicated circuit.

[jgourlay]

Swamp Fox:

Thanks. The compressor circuit will need to power the whole shed for 240vac but it won't be that big a deal. 120VAC will be a different circuit.

Thanks for the dust advice viz-a-viz the compressor. I'm going to have to think that through. Before I build this I'm going to spend a weekend in Waco at the basic blacksmithing class.

[Glenn]

My welder calls for a 50 amp 220v circuit. Can you imagine what would happen if the welder was being used and the compressor kicked on? You think your going to unplug one to plug in the other? After the first week or so, you leave them both pluged in and tell yourself it will be ok. We have all been there.

The difference between a 20 amp circuit and a 200 amp circuit is just bigger wire, a one time expense. Overkill, only till it is needed. Then you will swear you planned it that way.

And put a 220v plug at both the point of use AND at the open door nearest the driveway. Those 20 foot leads are great inside the shop, but the first time you weld on something outside the shop the extra plug is paid for.

Plan on swinging at least a 6 foot piece of stock around inside your shop. If you can do that without breaking out a window or the windshield of the wife's van, you have half a chance to have room to work. Calculate how much stock a scroll eats up sometime. You have to swing the stock before the scroll starts and only then does the stock start getting shorter.

Let us know how things work out. We want to know what works.

[jgourlay]

Glen, the cruel irony is that I plug and unplug now. When I ran the circuit to my garage my breaker box had just enough room for a 50A, 240 breaker, and that was it.

So, that's all I've got for my shop. What I did, however, was hook a second breaker box in the garage in an easy location. Because I have small children, I have an iron-clad rule that I never, ever leave a 240 circuit active unless I'm running the tools that are on that circuit. This shed will simply be an extension of that rule.

Okay, so from your rule I basically need at least an 8' diameter space + the "depth" of a forge. I think I can swing that.

[Glenn]

If your making a scroll that takes 6 feet of material that is a 6 foot RADIUS as one end is fixed solid and the other end swings.

If your making a 24" diameter ring, that ring takes about 6 feet of material. Fix one end and then make the swing. That means your need 8 feet of clear (radius) space, 1 foot for the radius of the circle, plus 6 feet of stock at the point of the beginning.

This is not exactly a true measure, as it leaves you with just a little bit of wiggle room. And it does not have to be clear space, just clear space at that elevation (using horozontal orientation).

With small children, put the 220v electric box at 5 feet from the floor. A cheap pad lock, to lock the switch in the off position, offers a lot of piece of mind. Neighbor kids may not know the rules or a way to get past the lock.

[Alan DuBoff]

I see you know me!!!

I used to follow your posts on WoodNet before they evicted me. I hope you still have your chisel box, would be cool to fill it with your own hand crafted chisels.

That class really did wonders for me in terms of my confidence and things I'm willing to tackle. I find now that many things are easier. What was your experience with it?

I hear nothing but great words about Paul and his shop, Roy Griggs from over on the oldtools list had gone there also and speaks with high praise. It looks great.

While I would like to take a workshop there, I was trying to attend Charles McRaven's workshops which he teaches on hand hewn log homes, and possible stonework.

I was wanting to take McRaven's blacksmithing workshop also, but I've found a local smith to teach me, and I have other plans for the logwork which could be better. The stonework workshop could be interesting, not sure. Gotta have a fireplace though... The craftsman I want to build my log home has offered to let me cut some of the dovetails on the home we build (and that will be like the deluxe workshop;-). It got me to thinking...would be cool to take vacation and go back to WV and work on it with him for a couple weeks. That won't happen for a couple years at least though. In the mean time I need to get the blueprints done, at which point I should be able to build the front door, and forge the hinges.

What perversity of character is it that forces us to want to make things ourselves? I don't understand, and I haven't been able to fight it, so there it is, I might as well go where it takes me!

I couldn't agree more.

I'm going to have the architect incorporate strap hinges, arched entry door, and carriage doors on the garage (which will have straps on them also). I'll most likely spend the rest of my life working on the home. I would like to make things myself for it. :cool:

[Ed Thomas]

Glenn: That's only if you want to do it the easy way. If your space is limited, you only need that length in a small arc in one direction. In forming the circle, you will rapidly need less length because you are using the material on the circle. Further, you can start the circle anywhere anwhere in the middle and bend the two ends toward each other, which means you need less than 1/2 that distance.

I know these things from working in a 10' x 16' shop for too long. Now I'm spoiled and don't have to fight for space, but I remember all too well.

[jgourlay]

Alan, where are you building your log home? That sounds like quite an undertaking. I have an ulterior motive behind all this as well.

I want my son and daughters to actually learn how to DO things, and I figure between a woodworking shop, blacksmithing shop with foundry that can double as a glass/pottery kiln, a chemistry bench and an electronics bench that anything they want to pursue, they can.

Made anything since Paul's class?

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan, where are you building your log home? That sounds like quite an undertaking. I have an ulterior motive behind all this as well.

I'm going to build it right here. It's located about 3 hours from where I live in the bay area. The Ardenwood Historical Farm is located about 20 miles from where I live now, so I'll be able to learn in my backyard so to speak. I'm going to build appalacian style on the logwork. Ultimately this will become the new shop, to build the house.

My wife thinks I'm a bit crazy for wanting to do this, but now she's seeing that we own the property free and clear, and I've shown here I can tackle this type of work by building a detached office in our backyard. Half of it will be my shop for working wood, and I hope to get a small smithy going in the backyard. I have a retaining wall I've been pondering building a brick forge on top of, put my blower in front and run the blower exhaust through/over the retaining wall to a forge, but I haven't figured out the forge exhaust issues yet, and I don't know if that will be a problem with my neighbors. I've had an idea that by utilizing a standard 20" fan, that sits up and blows the smoke off to the side, but not sure if that would create a 50' smoke trail up in the air.:confused:

Propane is certainly a good choice for the city, where I live, but I will have the forge over at Ardenwood to learn/use. I've been told that I can do much of the stuff I want to do on a propane forge, but not positive I want to go that route. I lean towards the traditional coal forge because...well, just because... But that's why I got the blower recentely, that's the style I would prefer. When I build the log home I'll incorporate an area for the smithy. I haven't considered clay, and probably only add something like that if one of my kids took an interest in clay. My son might, he's just getting into art seriously. I'd like to get him working wood.

I want my son and daughters to actually learn how to DO things, and I figure between a woodworking shop, blacksmithing shop with foundry that can double as a glass/pottery kiln, a chemistry bench and an electronics bench that anything they want to pursue, they can.

I would like similar, bit sure what will be on their agenda yet, both are involved in music and art. I'd like to teach them how to sail, but not sure they want that...at some point I want them to choice what they like, and want to offer them exposure to different crafts, especially the traditional. I guess I'm earthy in that sense.

Made anything since Paul's class?

I didn't take Paul's class. But I have made a couple small things recently but really need to finish my workbench that I'll use for all of my hand work.

One thing I realized about forging, and that is that it does require a few things...so I'm trying to acquire them...but still need a quench tub, some tongs, a decent hammer, and a metal vise would be nice, but I have a small metal vise I can at least mount on something to use. I also need some small things like gloves and such.

Anyway, you might check out some forging instruction under ABANA or similar in your area, Texas must have much more than Cali, but not sure. Do you live in a rural area? I have a few things happening close to me and Ardenwood Forge was a true find for me. The smith had some strap hinges like I would like to forge, tools and such, and that's how he teaches he told me, making tools, and other similar work. You might be able to find similar in your area. I'm looking forward to learning in a real smithy...rather than a micro-forge in my backyard. One of the first things we'll be doing is making hooks to hang hand tool. I want to hang much of them on the walls of the shop, my hand saws. and other woodworking tools like chisels, augers, brace, drill, etc...and I'm getting a tredle lathe with a scroll saw attached to it soon (a friend is selling it to me).

[Daryl]

Please do not make the same mistake I did. Plan for how big is your largest project going to be... you need space to properly assemble it (with a flat floor) and a means of getting it out the door (don't ask).
The building I am moving in to will have both of these problems remedied.