Damascus steel

[Dean O Riordan]

Hi everyone,

I am going to try and make some Damascus steel, now iv tried this before and not had much luck at it. I have a good idea how it's don and what i was doing wrong before, not hot enough, hitting it to hard.
So iv got my billet made and hope to start on it next week if i am off work.
The steel i am using is 2 bit's of 5160 an old file and 2 bit's of mild steel, here is a pic



Now starting from the top of the billet,

5160
mild steel
old file
mild steel
5160

Do you think this is ok and will it weld together ok ?
All comment's are welcome.

[nonjic]

Looks a tasty billet, makes me wanna weld it!

nice preperation. Its all down to heat, atmosphere and pressure now. get the flux on it early, then get some more flux on it when its hot, infact lots of flux all the time its heating ! (I use borax from wilkisons, straight from the box)

First welding pass your just 'pushing' it together. Might be worth just welding 2 pieces of mild together before you do that one just to check your hot enough!

It might take a few goes to get spot on welds, but there are really only so many variables to mess up, and once it clicks into place it seems real easy. Look forward to seeing how you get on with it!

Oh, and gas forge is easy, coke or coal not so in my experience, if your using solid fuel build a really deep fire, and keep the billet out of the direct air blast from the tue.!

[Rich Hale]

In the picture it seems that both ends are welded. I would free up the end away from your handle. Different steels and especially different thicknesses expand at different rates. That may cause what I call little buckles in the billets,,, air gaps that will trap scale and cause bad spots in the billet. I would cut the end weld off and wrap wire around the billet really tight about an inch and a half from handle end...another in middle and one near far end...weld from the handle end almost to the wire. then snip the wire off and work towards middle,, snip wire etc. Wires will keep it from spreading open and stll let pieces lenghten if they wish......
Keep in mind that you already have a bit of work in the billet and that will multiply fast. If you are not able to make forge welds every time on other steels you would be wise to work on that first.

[nonjic]

Hmmm,, what you say is correct but I allways weld both ends of the starting billet and have decent results. There will be some bowing in the outer layers as it heats but this lets the flux in and will stabalise when the whole thing is up to temperature.

You can minimise the bowing by pre-warming the billet in the forge exhaust for 20 mins or so if your being really fussy (not put the billet in a forge thats warming up though, that causes mega scale, and diaster! - ask how I know )

trapped flux is usually a result of hammering the outside of teh billet, then the central strip.

[Dean O Riordan]

THANK you all for the help
Iv the forge going and im going to start welding it :lol:

[Dean O Riordan]

THANK you all for the help
Iv the forge going and im going to start welding it

Ok iv just don the first weld and all is looking good then i made the first fold and tried to weld it and it came apart at the seconded weld i was doing, so now i have it all tied together with wire and try welding it again, hope it works this time, but i think it will as it can not come apart like it did the last time. :)

[ThomasPowers]

Welding in gas you usually use High C for the outside layer. Welding in coal you generally want the outside layer to be Low C.
WHAT ARE YOU USING?

[Dean O Riordan]

:D :D Ok iv just finished my first fold and seconded weld and it's looking very good :D

I think im getting the hang of it now so iv stopped for today because i am running out of borax's, so ill get more tomorrow and do 2 more weld's maybe 3

I will have a pic up later for you to see how i am getting on.


Thanks for all the help so far ;)

[Dean O Riordan]

Welding in gas you usually use High C for the outside layer. Welding in coal you generally want the outside layer to be Low C.
WHAT ARE YOU USING?

I am using coal :unsure:

[Dean O Riordan]

here are some pic's



In this seconded pic you can just about see the layers.


One more thing id like to ask you is, as this is my first time making Damascus steel,
how many fold's do you think i should do ?
Now i like the look of Damascus steel with a low layer count so i was thinking of doing 5 fold's which would give me 160 layers.
I all so have more than enough Damascus steel here for 2 knives. so there for was thinking of twisting one of the billet's but don't no what i should do with the other one. So what do you thing i could do with it ?
Just remember this is my fist time and want to keep it simple

Once again thank for all the help...

[Dean O Riordan]

Ok iv cut my billet in 2 and got it ready for welding tomorrow.





:)

[Dean O Riordan]

:angry: i can't get my hands on any borax, every were i went there was non. now i have order some but don't no when ill get it, it could be weeks

Is there anything ells i could use ?
I have read about people using salt, wd40, can they be used or will i just have to wait until i can get more borax..

Please help because my forge is looking cold and needs warming up :D

[ThomasPowers]

Have you asked at places that sell supplies for pottery making? Anhydrous Borax is used in making glazes and is preferred by many smiths to regular borax as it doesn't "popcorn" when put on a hot piece---you do have to keep it in a sealed tin though or it will hydrate back into regular borax.

[MattBower]

So you're welding 5160 to 5160 on the folds? That's not too bad, I guess. I've seen a lot of folks complain about having trouble getting 5160 to weld to itself. Nice job.

You've got some pretty different steels in there; I hope they hold together in the quench.

[brucegodlesky]

Get some stuff they use for killing roaches.

[nonjic]

welding is lookin good so far

might be worth giving these guys a try for borax. In the UK tescos has started selling it, or 'Wilkinsons' not sure about the republic

http://www.scarvapottery.com/opencontent/default.asp

[Dean O Riordan]

welding is lookin good so far

might be worth giving these guys a try for borax. In the UK tescos has started selling it, or 'Wilkinsons' not sure about the republic

http://www.scarvapottery.com/opencontent/default.asp

Thank you mate and thanks to everyone else that has helped ;)

[Dean O Riordan]

So you're welding 5160 to 5160 on the folds? That's not too bad, I guess. I've seen a lot of folks complain about having trouble getting 5160 to weld to itself. Nice job.

You've got some pretty different steels in there; I hope they hold together in the quench.

so 5160 does not like to weld it's self, when i start the next well ill cheek to see how well it has welded, and if it does not look good ill put something in between the 2 bit's of 5160 steel, before i get to far on with it and it to late to do out with it. Thanks for the info ill keep an eye on it ;)

[jason0012]

Funny, I have never had the least bit of trouble welding 5160 to its self or just about anything else. The one exception was the time I tried welding it up with 440C( that didn't go well) Lots of people will tell you something is impossible without trying it. High chromium steels are touchy about welding, but 5160 just has a little chromium and doesn't seem to have that problem. Remember, lots of old forging texts claim that no steel should ever be forge welded to its self, that it doesn't weld well! When I started in blacksmithing there was a common myth going around that it was impossible to forge weld in a gas forge! It was the first thing I did when I switched to gas! I have welded literally tons of 5160 into damascus, axe edges, and lots of various tools. It welds fairly easy, forges easy (its soft), and heat treats easy, to make a vary durable tool. the heat treat on 5160 gives it quite a nice range of hard/tough properties so it is adaptable to many different types of tools. Oh yeah, unlike 4340 , its really cheap too!

[Dean O Riordan]

:D :D Iv got more Borax today so i am going to do some more forge welding on my billet today :D
I will let you all know how i got on later.

Thanks for all the help so far and the nice comments ;)

[Dean O Riordan]

Right i am on my 4th fold, 5th weld and all is working out very well I am going to do the 5th and final fold tonight as well and all so weld it up. so then i can cut it into 2 pieces and then twist one of them and leave the other one as it is, ready for forging into knives

Oh i tested the weld's and they are all ok so far. It's not all that hard to do now i know what i was doing wrong the first time i give it a go, Iv learned from my mistakes

I will have pic's up later of my finished billet. ;)

[Dean O Riordan]

I have finished my first billet of Damascus steel, 5 folds 160 layers :D and like i said i was going to do i cut it into 2 bits. I also twisted one half and flattened it out, then cut it in 2 half's, so ill get 2 small knives out of the twisted piece of Damascus steel
As for the half that i did not twist i will make one knife out of that i think i get a 6" blade out of it.

Now for the pictures of the 2 pieces of steel iv got.

This first pic is the twisted piece,



The next one is the other half of the billet i did not twist,



Now the next thing i would like to ask you all is what acid can i use to etch my blade's with ?

[adamj]

i use ferric chloride it makes a good etch its computer board etchant. i have also used straight battery acid from auto parts store

[kevin (the professor)]

go with vinegar or ferric chloride. ferric is better if you cut it to about 4 or 5 to 1. it only takes from a few seconds to a few minutes. vinegar takes all night, but you probably have some of that laying around.

ebay is the way for ferric - but be careful to check the shipping charges. There are some people who try to trick you with low price for ferric and then ungodly shipping.

looking forward to seeing what you create. I love low-layer count twists.

kc

[FredW]

Try radio shack for ferric chloride. It is used to etch circuit boards. I use vineagar as it is cheap and I can get it virtually anywhere. If you heat the vinegar to 140 or so it will etch much quicker. Matter of minutes but still much slower than ferric chloride.

Fred