3B Nazel forging stainless

[Richard Furrer]

Hello All,
I have added a new video on the site in it the "video" area
http://www.doorcountyforgeworks.com/Welcome.html
I heard from some folk that showing a large hammer forging on small stock is not useful so I thought I'd put this chunk into play. Keep in mind that stainless requires twice the force than mild steel so this 4x4x4 stainless is a bit of a chunk.

I believe that whistle/squeak is the valve timing being off a bit....anyone else have this on their machine?
I am also having an issue with the bottom key..its mating well, but will not hold...not sure why.

Ric

[nonjic]

Looking good Ric!

The squeak might be a gasket blowing a little under full pressure load, Im sure you know already but 1/8" : 12" (1:96) is the standard for tapers on most machines.

[Nazelhammers]

Ric

Is the squeaking noise coming out of the muffler? Have you done anything to the linkage between the upper and lower valves that might have changed the timing? How long has the hammer been squeaking? It very well could be the timing is off causing the noise. If the timing is not off I'd next check the bypass valve. To check the timing you’ll have to pull the bypass valve chamber off anyhow you might as well check the over all condition of the valve and spring.

You mentioned in your video you have a new larger bottom die. Did you also make a new wedge? The wedge should have a compound taper - 1/8" per foot at 5 degrees.

[Glenn Gilmore]

Ric

Is the squeaking noise coming out of the muffler? Have you done anything to the linkage between the upper and lower valves that might have changed the timing? How long has the hammer been squeaking? It very well could be the timing is off causing the noise. If the timing is not off I'd next check the bypass valve. To check the timing you’ll have to pull the bypass valve chamber off anyhow you might as well check the over all condition of the valve and spring.

You mentioned in your video you have a new larger bottom die. Did you also make a new wedge? The wedge should have a compound taper - 1/8" per foot at 5 degrees.

Ric,

What size are your new dies? In the video the bypass valve doesn't appear to have much movement. Will the ram go all the way into the hammer and park there when you are not forging? A friend of mine took a pair of vice grips and clamped them to the stem of the bypass valve and it allowed the ram to park.

Thanks,

Glenn

[Richard Furrer]

Ric,

What size are your new dies? In the video the bypass valve doesn't appear to have much movement. Will the ram go all the way into the hammer and park there when you are not forging? A friend of mine took a pair of vice grips and clamped them to the stem of the bypass valve and it allowed the ram to park.

Thanks,

Glenn

The ram will park as you say, with a small bit of noise which I assume is the ram hitting the upper housing which may be a warn plug preventing that air cushion effect which is the design. Also the pawl is warn (has had a brazing job done to it in the past) and I have fitted a screw which allows for adjustment to keep the ram down and dies visible. It seemed a good solution considering that I can not remove the top of the ram housing to repair what may be warn (appeared to have been well secured at some point in the past even though I could remove all the bolts and went to it with heat and a wedge and general cussing years ago when I bought the hammer).

As to the key:
It is the reworked key from the other set of dies which held well.
the taper is 5 degree on the dovetail for the die and I scrapped the key to fit with a blue die to verify contact. The key is about 5/8" thick on one end and tapers well to the other. I assume it is OK..other than it not doing its job that is.

Squeak:
Not sure if it comes from the muffler, but that may very well be that case.
I have pulled the side bypass valve cover and the tic lines almost line up. I have not adjusted anything on the hammer.
The noise comes when it is run close to full out.

Ric

[Dave Hammer]

Ric.... It sounds like you are having trouble removing the top ram guide on your 3B. If that's the case, it seems like it could be pressed up from the bottom using the ram to push up against it. Just push the ram all the way up (block up as normal), secure it with a wood post (on the side). Take off the muffler stuff and then remove the bolts holding down the upper ram guide. Put a block of some type on the lower die with a hydraulic jack sitting on it. The top of the jack should be just below the upper die. Pump the jack to push up against the center of the upper die. It should push out the top ram guide. A couple inches of movement should push out the guide. Take off your upper die first (and just push against the ram itself) if there is any chance parts will touch the lower ram guide as you push the ram up into the lower guide.

If the problem you are having is with the bottom die, you can do something similar from the top after the top guide is off. Take off the sow block. Let the ram down till it hits on the lower ram guide, then put a bar across the top of the ram. Put a post on that bar with a hydraulic jack on top of it (reaching almost to the top of the cylinder). Put a bar across the top of the cylinder frame (held down using the bolt holes that hold on the top guide). Jack up against the bar that is bolted to the top of the cylinder (you need to use a short pump lever, just figure out what will work). This will force the lower ram guide down (be sure you are able to release the pressure in case this doesn't work). Remember, the ram will be coming down with the guide. I would have a structure of some type in place (built around the ram) that would stop the lower guide after about 2.5 inches of drop (the lower ram guide should be free of the frame by then. Remember the structure needed to hold the lower ram guide from falling needs to straddle the ram and be stable enough to hold the ram guide in place after you pull up the ram. The ram will be sitting on the lower guide. After lower ram guide is down and loose, I would take the stuff off the top end (bars, post and jack) and pull the ram up from the top so I could remove the lower ram guide. Make the bar that sits on top of the ram so it cannot score the cylinder walls.

Be sure what you use to hold the lower guide and ram from falling is STABLE and cannot be knocked over (build a frame and be sure it sits stable on the anvil). I'm sure you are aware that all these parts weigh hundreds of pounds, so plan accordingly. You don't want anything to fall.

I have a 3B apart here... Looking at the parts, I don't see anything you will damage as long as you are pressing in the center of things. It should just press the guides out.

I would do what is necessary to get some penetrant in as far as I could....

Nazelhammers should be able to comment on the suitability of using this method for removing stubborn guides....

I can also suggest, if you are interested, a small modification of the ram guides that would make removing them much easier in the future (think about how some brake drums are removed).

[Nazelhammers]

The recommended way to remove the ram guide housing on a B type Nazel Hammer is to remove the head and ram first out from the top of the machine. Before removing the ram first remove the bottom die. All the components within the front cylinder should be parallel and center from the cushion plug in the ram and the cushion bushing in the head out to the ram guide plates and housing. If the guide plates are worn the ram will be off center or cocked and the ram guide housing will be difficult to remove with the ram in the hammer. If there are any bent ram guide housing stubs on the hammer or if the housing is on the hammer off center it will make it even more difficult to remove the housing with the ram in the hammer. You could perhaps sneak the housing off with the ram in the hammer if everything is within tolerance by loosening the head bolts to get some wiggle room. But the factory recommended way to remove the housing is to remove the ram. The ram doesn’t have to be fully removed but it should clear the housing to remove the housing. Either way the head still has to come off. With the head off I’d check the ball valves and cage. The whistling or squeak could be coming from a missing or incorrectly seating ball. If the balls are not seating or one or both are missing altogether it will cause an air leak affecting the cushion between the ram and head no matter if the cushion bushing is within tolerances to the cushion plug.

If the hammer is not forging “square” it is an indication the guide plate could be worn. If the guide plates are worn the amount of wear will translate to the cushion bushing. Assuming the cushion plug is steel and the bushing is brass. We've seen hammers with steel plugs and bushings. If that is the case then both will show signs of ware. The head also helps keep the ram centered in the front cylinder and wear in the guide plates will translate to wear on the head. Using a screw in the latch or “pawl” for adjustment or vise grips on bypass valve stem is an indication of a problem elsewhere that should be addressed. However resourceful any fix of this type might be it should only be for the short term or used as a diagnosis tool to find the cause. There are ways to cheat the system but a better way is to find the source and fix the problem. If left unattended issues tend accumulate causing bigger problems later.

[Richard Furrer]

The recommended way to remove the ram guide housing on a B type Nazel Hammer is to remove the head and ram first out from the top of the machine. Before removing the ram first remove the bottom die. All the components within the front cylinder should be parallel and center from the cushion plug in the ram and the cushion bushing in the head out to the ram guide plates and housing. If the guide plates are worn the ram will be off center and the ram guide housing will be difficult to remove with the ram in the hammer. If there are any bent ram guide housing stubs on the hammer or if the housing is on the hammer off center it will make it even more difficult to remove the housing with the ram in the hammer. You could perhaps sneak the housing off with the ram in the hammer if everything is within tolerance by loosening the head bolts to get some wiggle room. But the factory recommended way to remove the housing is to remove the ram. The ram doesn’t have to be fully removed but it should clear the housing to remove the housing. Either way the head still has to come off. With the head off I’d check the ball valves and cage. The whistling or squeak could be coming from a missing or incorrectly seating ball. If the balls are not seating or one or both are missing altogether it will cause an air leak affecting the cushion between the ram and head no matter if the cushion bushing is within tolerances to the cushion plug.

If the hammer is not forging “square” it is an indication the guide plate could be worn. If the guide plates are worn the amount of wear will translate to the cushion bushing. Assuming the cushion plug is steel and the bushing is brass. We've seen hammers with steel plugs and bushings. If that is the case then both will show signs of ware. The head also helps keep the ram centered in the front cylinder and wear in the guide plates will translate to wear on the head. Using a screw in the latch or “pawl” for adjustment or vise grips on bypass valve stem is an indication of a problem elsewhere that should be addressed. However resourceful any fix of this type might be it should only be for the short term or used as a diagnosis tool to find the cause. There are ways to cheat the system but a better way is to find the source and fix the problem. If left unattended issues tend accumulate causing bigger problems later.

So the top of the ram housing will not be free to remove even if the ram is in the down position? I had the ram down and took off the muffler cone, piece under the cone and all the top nuts and still could not get the top cap free. I used penetrant, hammer blows to the cap, a wedge to the only small gap in the casting I could get and no luck. She is solid in place.

Ric

[Nazelhammers]

So the top of the ram housing will not be free to remove even if the ram is in the down position? I had the ram down and took off the muffler cone, piece under the cone and all the top nuts and still could not get the top cap free. I used penetrant, hammer blows to the cap, a wedge to the only small gap in the casting I could get and no luck. She is solid in place.

Ric

Sorry for any confusion but we both might not be on the same page? Starting at the top of the front cylinder under the muffler body and muffler cone is the ram cylinder head. If you take out the four (4) bolts that hold both parts of the muffler to the hammer the next item under the muffler and to be removed is the ram cylinder head. The ram cylinder head fits inside the ram and is held to the hammer with six (6) 3/4 - 10 nuts on studs. Is the ram cylinder head what you are calling the ram housing?

[Dave Hammer]

Ric

Nazelhammers discussion is about removing the lower ram guide, not the ram cylinder head (I incorrectly called the ram cylinder head the upper ram guide in my post above). I still believe the ram cylinder head could be pushed up (out) using a hydraulic jack as I described above.

I think he is concerned about my suggestion to use the ram (with a hydraulic jack) to push down the lower ram guide. Although I always respect the experience of the factory rep, it's hard for me to understand that a ram would be so far out of alignment (worn wear plates) that it would bind in the guide (or cylinder) if you tried to push the lower guide down using the ram. The top portion of the ram would be sitting on the lower ram guide and by default it would be squared up by contact (unless the top of the ram guide is not true). The ram will be sitting on the top of the guide and both will be pushed down by the jack. The ram should be loose in the guide area and should not bind in the cylinder area. After the lower ram guide is lower than the frame, my suggestion was/is to pull the ram up through the cylinder. In any case, I only suggested a method to removed the lower guide (if it is stuck) if you want/need to remove the lower ram guide.

To troubleshoot your current problem(s), it should only be necessary to remove the ram cylinder head and the ram....

[Richard Furrer]

Sorry for any confusion but we both might not be on the same page? Starting at the top of the front cylinder under the muffler body and muffler cone is the ram cylinder head. If you take out the four (4) bolts that hold both parts of the muffler to the hammer the next item under the muffler and to be removed is the ram cylinder head. The ram cylinder head fits inside the ram and is held to the hammer with six (6) 3/4 - 10 nuts on studs. Is the ram cylinder head what you are calling the ram housing?

OK,
Indeed in my Nazel literature the part I can not remove is #3 the Ram Cylinder Head.
When I first got the tool I removed some 11 coats of paint and 3/4 of an inch of grease/grit......so much so that I thought the casting was cracked as large pieces came off with a putty knife.

I had to turn the ram guide plate as the ram was in position #3 and now it is the #1 "usual" orientation as seen in the video. I have no idea why it was turned when I got it.
Since I had to do that I figured I'd have a look at the ram and guides, but I could not get the ram cylinder head off...tried for two days even resorting to a 12 pound sledge when I could think of nothing else.
I called a few folk and it was decided, since I had a job for the hammer, to put it all back together and have run it since with just oil and electricity...about three years.

Guides:
I can wiggle the ram in the down position when its resting on the lower die..about a heavy 1/8" or so (in all directions including twisting the ram). This is most likely the reason for the work going diamond or so I think.
It would appear I need to add shims or new guides at some point..there are two hex bolts protruding through the ram guide plate..I assume these are holding the guides in place.

I removed part #62 the Bypass Chamber and had a look at the marked lines on the plate..they were very close to lining up, but not dead on..I did not change them.
Its hard to change the guides though when the cylinder head will not come off.

#18 the Valve Quadrant Latch (what I would call a pawl) is worn and that is where I added the screw ..not elegant, but it works.

All in all it appears to be a good hammer, but I have done no major work to it. I was told it was rebuilt before I got it, but....I do not think this is so.

In a few months I could try to get the Ram Cylinder head off again...if anyone has suggestions. Perhaps it has loosened with years of vibration and oil and such? That is my hope.

Die key:
It would seem I have too much of a taper, but not by much.
The die is 7.5 inches long and the key is 108 thou on the large side and 95 thou on the small so if I am doing the math correctly I have four thou more than the taper I need.
Odd how I altered the key not much at all and one set of dies fit while the other does not. Other than some add hoc solution like drilling and taping the key end to put pressure on it using bolts and spacers I have few ideas. The dies are flat and parallel with a 5 degree dovetail just like the ones I removed and I have not changed the sow block which has the 5 degree dovetail and secondary taper.
I admit I feel a bit ridiculous not being able to fit a simple key and have it stay.


As things look I may get a larger Nazel for larger work and I'd hate to monkey too much with a 5 or 6 B without an overhead crane or better yet some in-depth know how. Moving something is generally not the main issue...its knowing what to move where.

Ric

[Glenn Gilmore]

I have removed part #3 from my 1B and 3B. Both had 2 threaded holes in the top which I attached a flat bar to with a swivel eye centered between the 2 threaded studs. I used a overhead gantry crane to lift them out. The part #3 on the 3B is quite heavy and I would not want to pull it without some hoist system.
Both slid out easily.


Glenn

[Glenn Gilmore]

[Nazelhammers]

OK,
Indeed in my Nazel literature the part I can not remove is #3 the Ram Cylinder Head.
When I first got the tool I removed some 11 coats of paint and 3/4 of an inch of grease/grit......so much so that I thought the casting was cracked as large pieces came off with a putty knife.

I had to turn the ram guide plate as the ram was in position #3 and now it is the #1 "usual" orientation as seen in the video. I have no idea why it was turned when I got it.
Since I had to do that I figured I'd have a look at the ram and guides, but I could not get the ram cylinder head off...tried for two days even resorting to a 12 pound sledge when I could think of nothing else.
I called a few folk and it was decided, since I had a job for the hammer, to put it all back together and have run it since with just oil and electricity...about three years.

Guides:
I can wiggle the ram in the down position when its resting on the lower die..about a heavy 1/8" or so (in all directions including twisting the ram). This is most likely the reason for the work going diamond or so I think.
It would appear I need to add shims or new guides at some point..there are two hex bolts protruding through the ram guide plate..I assume these are holding the guides in place.

I removed part #62 the Bypass Chamber and had a look at the marked lines on the plate..they were very close to lining up, but not dead on..I did not change them.
Its hard to change the guides though when the cylinder head will not come off.

#18 the Valve Quadrant Latch (what I would call a pawl) is worn and that is where I added the screw ..not elegant, but it works.

All in all it appears to be a good hammer, but I have done no major work to it. I was told it was rebuilt before I got it, but....I do not think this is so.

In a few months I could try to get the Ram Cylinder head off again...if anyone has suggestions. Perhaps it has loosened with years of vibration and oil and such? That is my hope.

Die key:
It would seem I have too much of a taper, but not by much.
The die is 7.5 inches long and the key is 108 thou on the large side and 95 thou on the small so if I am doing the math correctly I have four thou more than the taper I need.
Odd how I altered the key not much at all and one set of dies fit while the other does not. Other than some add hoc solution like drilling and taping the key end to put pressure on it using bolts and spacers I have few ideas. The dies are flat and parallel with a 5 degree dovetail just like the ones I removed and I have not changed the sow block which has the 5 degree dovetail and secondary taper.
I admit I feel a bit ridiculous not being able to fit a simple key and have it stay.


As things look I may get a larger Nazel for larger work and I'd hate to monkey too much with a 5 or 6 B without an overhead crane or better yet some in-depth know how. Moving something is generally not the main issue...its knowing what to move where.

Ric

The way we remove the ram cylinder head is with an over head crane of some sort. Put a chain in two of the muffler bolt hole and hook the loop. The ram cylinder head has to lift off straight up. I try not to force anything if at a possible. If a ball came out of its cage it could be stuck between the ram cylinder head and ram. Or perhaps you have a broken ram cylinder head ring. You can try loosening the ram guide housing and move it accordingly to try and get the ram cylinder head off.

Just shimming the guide plates isn't enough. You should come off center of the cushion plug and parallel the ram flats to the guide plates and housing. We bench fit everything before puting the parts back in the hammer. If you have 1/8" play with ram at rest that is way too much. That is more than ten times the amount of recommended clearance. I'll bet the cushion bushing it trashed also and the ram cylinder head has moderate to extensive ware. I’d measure everything to get a base line of where to start while you have everything apart.

If the wedge seems like it has too much taper it portably does. The 5 degree angle might be washed out a bit. Whatever the taper and degree the bolster has the wedge has to match. If you do not have the correct taper and degrees you stand a chance of cracking the ram. We do not make wedges for Nazel’s by hand. We have a fixture we use on a milling machine to get the angles, tapers and radiuses right.

[JNewman]

When I machined a new top key for the Massey I made a fixture for my mill vice to hold it on an angle while I machined the taper. I then fit it with bluing and a file to get it exact. I don't understand how you can have the taper off if you blued it in. I was having a problem with my sow block coming loose when I did high forgings putting a lot of side load on the dies. I put a center pin under the sowblock on Grant and John N's recommendation as well I ground quite a bit off the very end of the key because it had upset from being driven in. Since then I have had no problems with the sow block coming loose either.

[Richard Furrer]

When I machined a new top key for the Massey I made a fixture for my mill vice to hold it on an angle while I machined the taper. I then fit it with bluing and a file to get it exact. I don't understand how you can have the taper off if you blued it in. I was having a problem with my sow block coming loose when I did high forgings putting a lot of side load on the dies. I put a center pin under the sowblock on Grant and John N's recommendation as well I ground quite a bit off the very end of the key because it had upset from being driven in. Since then I have had no problems with the sow block coming loose either.

I do not understand either.
I fit knives together so I have a bit of practice making things "fit", but this one confuses me.
The new dovetails on the dies are 5 degree from a dovetail cutter and they match both sides of the sow...the key fits with bluing rather well...yet it loosens.
There is a pin in the upper die that was used on the old set of dies so I continued the practice in the new upper die and it is holding very well.
The bottom die has no pin...but it might next week...till I had this issue I thought it was not needed.

Ric

[Richard Furrer]

The way we remove the ram cylinder head is with an over head crane of some sort. Put a chain in two of the muffler bolt hole and hook the loop. The ram cylinder head has to lift off straight up. I try not to force anything if at a possible. If a ball came out of its cage it could be stuck between the ram cylinder head and ram. Or perhaps you have a broken ram cylinder head ring. You can try loosening the ram guide housing and move it accordingly to try and get the ram cylinder head off.

Just shimming the guide plates isn't enough. You should come off center of the cushion plug and parallel the ram to the guide plates and housing. We bench fit everything before puting the parts back in the hammer. If you have 1/8" play with ram at rest that is way too much. That is more than ten times the amount of recommended clearance. I'll bet the cushion bushing it trashed also and the ram cylinder head has moderate to extensive ware. I’d measure everything to get a base line of where to start while you have everything apart.

If the wedge seems like it has too much taper it portably does. The 5 degree angle might be washed out a bit. Whatever the taper and degree the bolster has the wedge has to match. If you do not have the correct taper and degrees you stand a chance of cracking the ram. We do not make wedges for Nazel’s by hand. We have a fixture we use on a milling machine to get the angles, tapers and radiuses right.

The ram cylinder head and sundry may be warn..hard to tell since #3 will not come off. There is very little air leaking around the ram..would there not be more if things were very warn?
Where are the specs for the clearances on the moving parts?

Wedge:
How can a loose bottom die crack the ram?

Ric

[Dave Hammer]

Nazelhammers.... Thanks for letting us know how you remove the ram cylinder head. Much better than my suggestion.

Will you share the process you use to determine the needed wear guide thickness (which may be different for each side) using the position of the ram when the plug is in the cushioning bushing? I'm not sure I understand where and how you would measure. It seems like you would have to measure distances right up close to the top of the thinner part of the ram, which would be above the ram guide. Without the guides in place, it seems like there would be "wiggle" on the lower part of the ram when the plug is up in the cushion. It's not clear to me where you measure to determine needed thicknesses. Also, do you recommend machining the wear guides so NO shims are used?

Thanks in advance for your guidance....

[Nazelhammers]

The ram cylinder head and sundry may be warn..hard to tell since #3 will not come off. There is very little air leaking around the ram..would there not be more if things were very warn?
Where are the specs for the clearances on the moving parts?

Wedge:
How can a loose bottom die crack the ram?

Ric

Factory clearances are 10 to 15 thousandths for a 3B. Could spread out the tolerances a little more if the hammer is used for extended periods during a work day and it reaches a full heat cycle.

A loose fitting bottom die won't crack the ram. I should have made it clear by saying an ill fitted top wedge could crack the ram. I had a brain fart while typing because we are machining a new ram for a 2B that cracked because the company who had the hammer used a straight wedge without the 5 degrees added to the taper. If either top or bottom wedges do not have full purchase the full length of the dovetail and die it could cause stress in one spot or area causing a crack in either the ram or bolster. A proper fitted wedge has a distinct sound and feel. It almost sounds and feels like it is being sucked in while you’re hitting it with a hammer. When you get it right you’ll know it because it will feel and sound right.

[Nazelhammers]

Nazelhammers.... Thanks for letting us know how you remove the ram cylinder head. Much better than my suggestion.

Will you share the process you use to determine the needed wear guide thickness (which may be different for each side) using the position of the ram when the plug is in the cushioning bushing? I'm not sure I understand where and how you would measure. It seems like you would have to measure distances right up close to the top of the thinner part of the ram, which would be above the ram guide. Without the guides in place, it seems like there would be "wiggle" on the lower part of the ram when the plug is up in the cushion. It's not clear to me where you measure to determine needed thicknesses. Also, do you recommend machining the wear guides so NO shims are used?

Thanks in advance for your guidance....

With all the front cylinder components out of the hammer the first thing we do is measure everything to get a base line on the ware. We measure the ram cylinder head and ram along their full length. We then fit the cushion plug center to the ram and then parallel the flats as needed. We work off this center point outward. The same tolerances or fit apply to the cushion plug, cushion bushing, ram cylinder head, ram and guide plates. Both guides should be of equal thickness and we do not use shims. We bench fit and test all components separately and together before assembling them in the hammer. Patients and close attention to custom fitted details is the key when putting the hammer back together. The fit and details is the art that made Nazel Hammers what they are. They shouldn’t just be slapped together haphazardly and hope you get it right. There is no sweeter sound then the symphony of a Nazel Hammer running correctly with all its parts doing what they were intended to do. Take your time, nothing should or can be rushed. It might take two or three times to get it right. But when you get it right you'll know its right by the feel and sound of all the parts working together. It’s almost like the hammer is living and breathing with its own sprit. The hammer should not sound like parts are going to fall off when running.

Just to add, a jack along with an over head crane is a viable option if the ram cylinder head somehow gets stuck in the ram. If you remove the ram cylinder head bolts, loosen the guide plate housing and jack the ram at top dead center with the die removed and lift at the same time both the ram cylinder head and ram should come out of the front cylinder together. You need to be careful and crib the ram as things move up and out of the hammer and take extra precautions that the two parts along with removal do not separate or fall apart from each other causing damage. The point of separation might come when the ram clears the guide plates and housing but be prepared anywhere along the distance of removal for separation. If the ram cylinder head and ram clear the hammer together you’ll need to secure them together somehow. If they are not secured and they separate while overhead 250lbs to 300lbs of falling weight will leave a mark on whatever it hits.

[Dave Hammer]

Nazelhammers.... Thanks for that generous information.

I'm off to Spring Fling in Berryville, VA...