PaulF Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I have a Champion #1 that I am modifying so the motor is on the base. In order to do this I will have to incerase the leingth of the shaft to move the belt out of the yoke. This will allow me to mount the belt shiv behind the machine and line up with the motor on the base. I see a potential problem in removing the shaft from the crank/counter weight. Is it a screw thread or press fit?? I can't find any set screws. If anyone has done something like this I would like to know the pitfalls. Thanks for your help! PaulF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Just a thought. What about making a shaft extension with a socket on one end that will just slide over the existing shaft, and position the pulley where you need it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I have not worked with a champion but many hammers have a tapered key driven in from the end along with a fairly snug fit on the shaft. The crankplate will break easily so I recommend that you cut the shaft off close to the back side of the plate. center punch the center then start by drilling a small hole then step drill til you get to the key way the shaft will press out with ease. You are going to make a longer shaft anyway so it is best to be on the safe side. I have made many of this type conversion to little giants so the belts can be changed without taking the bearing caps off. works great .Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulF Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 Just a thought. What about making a shaft extension with a socket on one end that will just slide over the existing shaft, and position the pulley where you need it? This would be great, however, I have no extra material at the back of the machine. And without removing the counter-weight I can't chuck it in my lathe. If I could, that is the route I would take. Thanks, PaulF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulF Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 I have not worked with a champion but many hammers have a tapered key driven in from the end along with a fairly snug fit on the shaft. The crankplate will break easily so I recommend that you cut the shaft off close to the back side of the plate. center punch the center then start by drilling a small hole then step drill til you get to the key way the shaft will press out with ease. You are going to make a longer shaft anyway so it is best to be on the safe side. I have made many of this type conversion to little giants so the belts can be changed without taking the bearing caps off. works great .Phil Peacock, This will be my aproach if I can't press or unscrew it. Thanks! PaulF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Can you post some pictures of what you are looking at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulF Posted April 4, 2010 Author Share Posted April 4, 2010 Sorry for not responding, work has reared it's ugly head yet again. The shaft was cut in a band saw and the pulley sheave and counter weight/crank shaft segments were pushed out with a 20 Ton press. The shaft in the crank is indeed keyed with a tapered key that presses out from the back side. This pushed the 20 Ton press almost to the end before it popped. Don't hit the belt sheave with a rubber hammer to loosten it, don't ask me how I know this, Im brazing mine now! I'm on dial up so I'll post pics soon when I get them. It takes all day to upload them. Thanks for the help. PaulF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulF Posted April 4, 2010 Author Share Posted April 4, 2010 Sam, Thanks for the offer, but transferring photos (even small files) is torture from here. I live on the North Olympic Peninsula near Olympic National Park. We have no cable and I would have to cut 5 acres of 2nd growth dug fir to get a shot at the Meridian for sat coverage. It’s a price I’m willing to pay to live in paradise. On further examination, the shaft is 1.560” in diameter. Not a convenient size so it looks like I’ll have to machine a 1-5/8 (1.625”) shaft down to size unless I can find a 1-9/16” cold rolled shaft. What I plan on doing is mount the hammer on a 40x25” ½ plate. This will allow me to build a motor stand behind the hammer and run the belt up to the sheave. It will take up some floor space but keep the motor low. Before, I had a bracket up high which made the CG of the whole thing unstable. Suggestions are welcome! PaulF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 You will save a little machine time if you only turn the ends where the crankplate, bearings and pulley go. If you are going to pour new babbit and the shells are big enough you can leave that 1.625 and pour the babbit that size. Sorry to hear about the pulley that broke, but you may want to think about putting a 2 groove v belt pulley on it. You can buy an 18 inch pulley and hub from surplus center for about $80. If you do that might need to turn the back end to 1.5 inch. that could be a nice up grade. If you go that way just polish up the shaft & use it as a mandrel before you turn the ends. Some things to think about. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 5, 2010 Share Posted April 5, 2010 V-belt on a hammer that uses a slack belt for the clutch? Not something I would advise! I snuck some time yesterday afternoon and started bathing my Champion #1 in PB-Blaster and decided to work on removing the *wrong* dies in it. (Looks like LG dies not the sideways Champion dies). The bottom die looked in great shape but the installation was a mess, 4 shims and the key all bent, upset and nasty. I ended up drilling a 3/8" hole cross ways through the key to hold a bolt. Chain around the bolt and the come-along on the chain with just a little less pull on it than would start to move the hammer. Then just a couple of whacks from the other end and the key jumped out. Well worth the effort drilling! The top die did not stick out enough to drill and hammering on it through a brass "end saver" hasn't had any effect. I may wait until I pull the ram off and then pay a visit to Mr Screw Press with it. Anybody have a set of cross dies for a Champion #1? I'd trade the LG dies + some boot for a set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted April 5, 2010 Share Posted April 5, 2010 V-belt on a hammer that uses a slack belt for the clutch? Not something I would advise actually ive used a hammer with this type of setup and it works NICE! i know it sounds like it wont work but it does. of course there are still flat belt pulleys out there in barns and you might find one on ebay...i wonder what it was about the old machinery they couldnt use standard size shafts? My finigan and mcgowan perrfect power hammer had a odd sized shaft also .. i ended up going a little bigger and running the bearings in (they were a little loose to start) good luck on your project! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted April 5, 2010 Share Posted April 5, 2010 Some of the major suppliers sell flat belt pulleys. New may be pricy, but they are available. If you have a lathe, you could also make one.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironwolfforgeca Posted April 5, 2010 Share Posted April 5, 2010 I have the same champion #1 PH my answer to the motor problem is I will build a steel frame on the side of hammer install motor on top run new belt ~ Mike HR has same hammer & put motor on top over pulley works good , youre going to have a long belt if the motor on the floor :<( as flat belt will make hammer skip on every rotation Mike does ! I am going to use v belt set up it will run lots smoother ~~ my hammer rebuild is on the back burner but soon to come in shop & get working on I have already machined new slides fix other parts I need to make new adj bolts and redo the wood base I made :<( opps plan change I forgot to tell myself lol anyhow have one any Info i can help you with I will Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulF Posted April 6, 2010 Author Share Posted April 6, 2010 Thanks for the replies! So let me get this right, I can use v or other belts and also use a friction idler clutch action like the flat belt?? This would work the same? I am planning on putting my motor on a stand about 3 feet off the floor behind the machine thus keeping my belt shorter. This is a great hammer and I want to keep it going. PaulF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironwolfforgeca Posted April 6, 2010 Share Posted April 6, 2010 Paul they make a solid v belt looks like 3 or 4 v belts in one for heavy Eqt that way you can have v belt on motor and use flat hammer pulley this is what I would like to do for my hammer you will need to ck into size's then adj/build as needed use a common belt size will cost less talk to a auto or truck parts store :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted April 7, 2010 Share Posted April 7, 2010 here is a picture of my friends hammer a homebuilt that works real well ! he uses 2 belts together to drive his hammer ... it takes a bit of fiddeling to get it right from what i remember but it DOES work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted April 7, 2010 Share Posted April 7, 2010 If you want to go with flat belt I have found some sources hit & miss has cast pulleys but a limited size the also have belting I got one for my powerhammer and one for my lathe they work greathttp://www.hitnmiss.com/index.html I found another place that has a better selection of stock pulleys and will custom make one if needed I did all this research when I was getting my hammer running then I went outside and almost tripped over a leather pulley that was right in my backyard (literally) paper pulleys has good selection check em outhttp://www.paperpulleys.com/pages/home.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted April 7, 2010 Share Posted April 7, 2010 here is a picture of my friends hammer a homebuilt that works real well ! he uses 2 belts together to drive his hammer ... it takes a bit of fiddeling to get it right from what i remember but it DOES work. hard to tell whats going on with this set up but it looks like he has a slack belt and the idler wheel is pushing outward to remove slack, if this is the case it would work much better pushing inward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulF Posted April 11, 2010 Author Share Posted April 11, 2010 The project is moving along. I found 1-9/16 shafting and have a 1/2x40x 28 base plates to mount the stand on. All this I will mount on pressure treated 6x6 timbers formed into a base under the 1/2 plate. This should form a shock absorber for the concrete slab. This will also bring the dies up 6-1/2". I've brazed the broken edge of the belt pulley and a coat of flat black will forgive all abuse. I'm determined to get some pictures out. I think I'll post from work to photo-bucket and include a link. Sorry I cant post them here. Every time I try, things just drop off the edge. Thanks for the help. PaulF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 I stripped my #1 down to the casting Saturday afternoon---only took a couple of hours. I guess soaking all the nuts and bolts with PB-Blaster a week or two ago must have helped as I had no problems disassembling it---no cheaters, impact tools, etc. Only thing left is to pull the front piece off the main shaft. Shaft looks great, Babbitt looks great. As the casting is not set up for the motor mount like my other one is, (original cast iron motor mount) I guess it was a line shaft model originally and I get to figure out how I want to run it. I like the motor down low personally... Still looking for some Champion dies as they are a bit different from LG's in that the die face is 90 deg to the dovetail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulF Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 The low motor is also the reason I'm modifying also. As you have found, my bearings are in great shape as well. I've replaced the slide guide ways with new, and I can tigthten the hammer to move freely, not bind and , have no side movement. All and all I think, this hammer will work very nicely once I've connected everything togeather. PaulF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I was thinking on if I should replace the gibs or just have the holes machined a bit slot like to allow them to be adjusted farther in. Probably check the wear surfaces for dips and make the decision on that basis. As I don't have a machine shop I have to rely on the kindness of strange friends for such work. How is the back plate the ram moves against on yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulF Posted April 15, 2010 Author Share Posted April 15, 2010 I was thinking on if I should replace the gibs or just have the holes machined a bit slot like to allow them to be adjusted farther in. Probably check the wear surfaces for dips and make the decision on that basis. As I don't have a machine shop I have to rely on the kindness of strange friends for such work. How is the back plate the ram moves against on yours? Thomas The wear on the Tup dovetail and backplane is minimal the gibs had the only wear, it showed that the motion of the crank caused the wear to increase on the top of one and the bottom of the other as the crank moves the Tup from left to right slightly on each stroke. I could re-machine the old ones and as you suggest, elongate the bolt holes thus giving me a spare set. Using soft steel for the gibs helped to reduce wear on the harder casting parts, I guess I could swap them around (like rotating tires) to better distribute the wear pattern. This week end I'll machine the key-way into the main shaft. I notice that with out the pully sheave in the central yoke position I may have to put a bushing in there with some teflon washers to keep the oil in the bearing oil resevoirs. Any advice? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 15, 2010 Share Posted April 15, 2010 Use a "sticky" oil like chainsaw bar oil? Oil is supposed to flow through these bearings making a big mess and floating out any crud that gets into the bearings as I understand it. I'm thinking of making some brass caps for the oil holes on top to help keep crud out in dusty windy NM. Tonight I need to try drilling out the key in the front face plate and pulling that so I can drop it off to be welded on at a friend's Saturday when I get back from Mexico. Boy I wish I had power to the shop to use the big (2hp dayton motor) drillpress for that job instead of a long extension cord and a hand drill... I also may drop in at the Case Tractor dealer and price some Case Flambeau Red paint for my girl; My Grandfather had the first Case dealership in AR back a long time ago and so that colour has a "family" history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulF Posted April 17, 2010 Author Share Posted April 17, 2010 Thomas, that’s interesting. I just finished rebuilding a Ford 8N Last year. It was in fair shape when I bought it but needed new everything. Talk about project creep! New gen, wiring, carb, valves, radiator core, water pump, hoses, thermostat, gauges, head gasket, exhaust manifold, PTO shaft seals, front loader ram seals, HYD pump rings and seals, paint…ect… ect. The correct term would be (I’m $6000 away from a great $2000 tractor). It was a lot of fun doing the work though. Have fun. As soon as I get more Information on the Hammer progress I’ll post. Paulf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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