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That is basically what I have that cost $70.00. Check with your local audiologists. But maybe cheaper here cause the company that made mine is right down the road from my shop, Microsonic.

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Thanks JH
-Mark was talking several hundred dollars, but I expect stories, told to make a point, at Demos are fairly well dramatized.
-grant

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Jymm,
Save your money on the over the counter remedies for tinnitus, they are hype. If you have just a ringing now, be very carefull to alleviate any loud sounds, with full blown tinnitus it is at time so lound you can barely make out regular sounds. You not actually hearing the sounds that occur with tinnitus but your brain is amplifying what can be best describes as white noise.

Regards
Jerry Fisher

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Thanks Jerry. I am serious about all my safety gear, not doing anything in my shop without ear plugs, safety glasses, wooden shoes, apron and a hat. I feel uncomfortable without one of these. I know the ringing in my ears is very slight and I think somewhat manageable,at least staying away from loud noises without protection. So to all others, be safe. Body parts are hard to replace.

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Frost Man -They looked more like this, http://earplugstore.stores.yahoo.net/jbcuearpl.html the orange ones, than muffs. Mark spoke of orchestra musicians wearing them and then told of his experience of picking up his original pair and wearing them out of the store; thinking they did not work until he got home, took out the trash, and noiselessly broke some glass bottles. Noiselessly to him anyway, of course there is the bit about the tree falling in the forest, you know about that. ;) Also, I have seen the same thing in race car drivers ears as they put on their balaclava, of coarse they have the additional helmet, but they still carry on a conversation on the radio and can presumably hear it as the engine comes from-togetherness -grant

PS I thought I got "ear defenders" from Mark. It could be my misinterpretation of what MA said or I could of dreamed it.

PSS Please Excuse me Frost Man; I will not mention it again!


Excuse you Grant? Are you NUTS? Getting something as insignificant as a particular term different from what everybody may think is the right one is nothing. Especially compared to having THIS discussion. Hearing protection is really REALLY important, I know, I damaged mine decades ago and am only now finding out how badly. Heck, I really LIKE the idea of ear defenders! I like that SOOOO much better than just "ear protection." "Ear Defenders" just sounds so much more serious and potent! B)

Heck, taking a quick look at the noise canceling headphones I THINK I saw an add for noise canceling ear plugs! I've been lusting after noise canceling headphones for several years now, a pilot buddy of mine let me use his wife's on a flight and I can tell you they're terrific. Mike and I were able to carry on a conversation at normal speaking levels and hear each other perfectly sitting behind the prop of a Cesna 170 on floats, during take off. Any of you who have done much small plane flying KNOW how loud a light plane is on takeoff, the prop tips exceed the speed of sound under full power and the noise is deafening a hundred yards away without protection. A float plane is worse as it has to fight water resistance till the floats are on step, even then it takes more power.

One of the benefits of muffs over plugs is muffs cover part of your skull reducing some bone conducted noise. Heck, even my peltor equiped hard hat is better protection than just peltor muffs. I'm wearing this hard hat in the shop now as a precaution seeing as the great white birch attack has turned me into a fragile flower of manhood. :blink: Seriously, I'm kind of susceptible to another hit on the head and it is easily possible to have something get away from you and bean you. Think having a hammer head come off the handle and go straight up and down, there's NOTHING like a 3lb love tap to the noggin.

Okay, back to noise canceling headphones, I saw price come ons down to the $60-70 range! Now if they they only only had a larger footprint over the ears to keep the bone conduction down. Anyway, terrific question Grant! Keep it up!

Frosty the Lucky.

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Noise exposure can cause permanent hearing loss with just a one time , brief exposure to an extremely loud sound, or a much lower level of sound endured over a long period of time. The recommended level of exposure without some form of hearing protection, over a continuous 8 hour period is 90 Db (decibels)That is about the same level as a dishwasher or garbage disposal.

A decibel is a unit of measurement of the INTENSITY of the sound and is a Logarithmic Scale. This scale means that a decibel rating of 80 is TEN times as intense as a rating of 70Db, and a rating of 90 is 100 times more intense and 100 is 1000 times more intense than a rating of 70Db.So even a rating change of 10 decibels is significant in terms of intensity. Exposure time should be reduced significantly with each increase in decibel ranges.

There are currently two different exposure rating systems in place. One system says if the Db(decibel) level increases by five (ie 70 Db to 75 Db)exposure time should be reduced by half. The other system uses a Db change of only three Db to cut exposure time by half.
as an example OHSHA says 90Db-8 hours max exposure, 95Db-4 hours max, 100Db- 1 hour max and so on (the other scale goes up by 3Db per exposure reduction time). these are Un-protected exposure limits. With good hearing protection (which reduce the intensity or Db level of the sound by their rating factor)you can stand higher levels of exposure or for longer periods of time than the normal un-exposed equivalents.

As one who worked in the steel industry for almost thirty years, I am very familiar with noise induced hearing loss. I didn't always wear hearing protection and now have permanent hearing losses in both ears. You don't realize just how much you have lost until you get a proper hearing test. The loss can be very gradual but each bit you lose is PERMANENT. I find it impossible to follow conversations in places like bars if their is music, or at wedding receptions etc. unless I have my hearing aids on and even then if it is particularly loud it is not possible to hear all the conversations at the table.So I would strongly advise the use of hearing protection at all times.

You don't get "USED" to the sound, you just can't hear it as well because you have suffered hearing loss!

Some people may feel that the cost of hearing protection may be excessive but if you compare the cost of a good pair of ear muffs (at $70) to the cost of GOOD hearing aids (mine - $5,000) it is a no brainer!

Terry

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I tend to wear foam ear plugs, almost religiously, even driving. I have some tinnitus and don't wAnt any more. I've even been known to put them in at church when the sound guy ain't paying attention to the Db level. I like the foam plugs better than the silicone ones because they conform to the changing shape of the ear canal when I yawn, grit my teeth, or whatever, and always have at least one pair in my pocket.

I've allways wondered though, if you loose hearing enough so that you have to turn up the TV, or radio to hear it comfortably---say, above 90Db, does the Db level still affect your hearing like it would if you had normal hearing, even though it's only comfortable with hearing loss?

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Any noise level above the acceptable level (90 Db) will continue to cause hearing loss. Even though you have already suffered some loss at a certain level that same level of noise will continue to cause hearing loss. Very fine "hairs"(the technical name escapes me at the moment) inside the inner ear pick up vibrations from the ear drum and transfer them to nerve endings that send the signal to your brain in order to interpret the sound. It is these "hairs " that become damaged from excessive noise levels.Partially damaged results in hearing loss and if the sound "intensity" (Db level) is high enough it can destroy them completely resulting in total hearing loss.
Even though only partly damaged and some hearing loss is noted, they can continue to deteriorate with more exposure to excessive sound. Hearing aids work by filtering the intensity or "pressure" of the sounds down to a low enough level to protect the ears but at a sufficiently high enough level to help you hear safely. Hearing aids "ARE NOT HEARING PROTECTORS!", So please do not wear them when working around high noise levels.

Hearing aids work by amplifying only the ranges of sound that have been identified as "Lost" due to noise exposure. They are not general "sound" amplifiers.Unfortunately noise induced hearing loss affects mostly the mid-range of frequencies we are able to hear and again,unfortunately, this happens to be the average frequency range of most speech.

A long winded explanation perhaps but to answer your question in short: continued exposure to sound levels above 90 Db without hearing protection can continue to make it worse, so your best bet is to Either get hearing aids, or set an external speaker from your TV closer to your ears and keep the sound down as much as you can.

Terry

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... Hearing aids "ARE NOT HEARING PROTECTORS!", So please do not wear them when working around high noise levels. ...

Terry


There are _some_ exceptions to this, talk to your doctor or specialist about needing this kind of feature. Some devices have noise canceling features, automatic attenuation, and such.

No I am not an expert, but have friends and family with hearing aids.
Phil

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Phil, you are correct in the fact that hearing aids have noise attenuators (Mine do have that feature) however they are not an efficient hearing protection device. I wear mine on occasion in the shop but I also wear my ear muffs over them. I just don't want people to maybe get the idea that if they have their hearing aids in that it will prevent hearing loss from loud or extended exposure to noise levels that would cause hearing loss.
The ONLY protection against hearing loss is a certified form of hearing protection. It is not fun to have permanent hearing losses of 30to 40 percent, which is what I have in each ear respectively, and it ALL could have been prevented by the simple use of PROPER hearing protection in my younger (Invincible?) years. That is why I am such a proponent of the proper protection and why my boys think I am nothing but a Royal Pain in the Butt because I always ask if they are using it when working with power tools..Etc.

Terry

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Phil, you are correct in the fact that hearing aids have noise attenuators (Mine do have that feature) however they are not an efficient hearing protection device. I wear mine on occasion in the shop but I also wear my ear muffs over them. I just don't want people to maybe get the idea that if they have their hearing aids in that it will prevent hearing loss from loud or extended exposure to noise levels that would cause hearing loss.
The ONLY protection against hearing loss is a certified form of hearing protection. It is not fun to have permanent hearing losses of 30to 40 percent, which is what I have in each ear respectively, and it ALL could have been prevented by the simple use of PROPER hearing protection in my younger (Invincible?) years. That is why I am such a proponent of the proper protection and why my boys think I am nothing but a Royal Pain in the Butt because I always ask if they are using it when working with power tools..Etc.

Terry


My family think I am a pain in the butt when I start passing out earplugs too! My Dad and oldest brother have the worst attitude about it. My Mom already has hearing aids. I hope to avoid hearing aids all together myself. My nieces just want to listen to their Ipods while driving the lawn tractor, and good ole ear muffs are easy to get them to wear.

Phil

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Hi All,
I had to do some research on noise when I worked in a machine shop. The point about NRR or noise reduction rating is that it reduces the amount of decibles by approximately what the NRR rating is on your hearing protection if you install them properly. So, if your air hammer is 130 decibles and you ear plugs are rated at 25-30 NRR, you are still exposing yourself to too much noise. The problem with the ear muff type is that if you are wearing safety glasses, the earpieces keep the muff from conforming to your head thereby letting in extra noise. The best thing to do is wear ear plug and earmuffs together, making sure that you use the highest NRR ratings available AND install them correctly. A lot of people do not put in the ear plugs properly. For instance if you lawn tractor puts out 120 decibles and you put in earplugs with a 25 NRR rating, you are still getting 95 decibles of sound. Add the earmuffs with a rating of 25NRR and you are down to 70 decible of noise. I have hearing loss and it really stinks. It is very difficult for me to carry on a conversation with any background noise. The other problem is that a lot of noise induced hearing loss is NOT treatable with hearing aids. My Father is pretty deaf from industrial work, and hearing aids will not work for him. The point is PROTECT YOUR HEARING NO MATTER WHAT THE COST.
Take care,
Mark Emig

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It's not fair!

Guys with the same exposure to noise as me over 50 years of metalworking, blacksmithing, turbine, truck and tractor engine tuning, auditing Cape Canaveral noise abatement society membership, 7.62 NATO shooting, and all that good stuff have severe hearing damage.

But I can still hear Hillary at 1000 paces.

It's not fair!

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the earmuff, if you wear glasses you will not get a good seal around your ears some of the noise will get though
thake care of your hearing once you lose some your hearing it is lost will not get better

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Some earmuffs have softer gel type pads that help sealing, also with safety glasses the bayonet (straight) type ear pieces don't put as much pressure on the ear, as do the regular curved ones when using muffs.This is why a lot of shooting glasses have the bayonet style.

I hear talk about I-pods etc. The ear buds are also being looked at now because they put the sound so close to the eardrum. They may actually be a cause of hearing loss.

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I always suspected that, since the dawn of the Walkman. When I worked in a print shop doing odd jobs I would wear ear plugs and headphones over them with the music just loud enough to hear, but I allways wondered just how loud that really was after the 25-29 dB filter.

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We have had to have a noise survey done in our shop as part of our DA for our new shop, had a geek walking around with a microphone with a sock over it for a day taking recordings of all and sundry. Of interest was that out all our machinery in the workshop, our little gasser furnace was in his opinion the most likely to cause the most hearing loss, as it was "a constant low pitch noise, and most people would not associate that noise as a hearing loss concern and so would not use hearing protection." He felt that OK the power hammers were loud, but we know that, and use protection, also the hammers are a quick sharp noise, that will damage hearing, but they are not a constant "white noise" which what the gasser is.

I'll see if I can get an electronic copy of the test results from our planner guy, and I'll post them up on the board. May take some weeks to chase them up as the planner is having an op in the hospital, and is going to be out of action.

PS I loathe ear plugs, had to have a abcess lanced inside my ear canal many years ago caused by ear plugs, muffs for me.

Phil

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Just as a side note, although all the causes of tinnitus are not known, (some are, like excessive noise) there seems to be evidence that suggests to the audiologist community that tinnitus can also be caused by diet. Some folks have reported that quitting things like caffeinated drinks (and other things but I can't remember what they were,) has a result of improving their tinnitus condition.

Just a glimmer of hope for some---maybe. :)

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ive heard that about the tinnitus thing...diet.....long live iced coffee!....ringggggg
i wear the ...used to wear the $50 tiny in the ear, allow voice and block other noise for shooting,
and now for grinding etc the hard earmuff sort. the little ones used to carry stuff into my ear, with the in out thing, and pressure annoy eventually.

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I seem to remember from somewhere that the noise of metal cutting: drilling, milling,turning etc. is particularly damaging.

The main point of my original post was the danger of forcing swarf deep into the ear with a dirty plug, I always
use muffs myself although the dog likes to chew them, I think he likes the taste of the sweat.

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I double up, Muffs and Foam Plugs. I have worn some form of hearing protection my entire metal working career. ( Going on 15 years now.) I have a hearing test each year at my annual physical. I have not lost an hearing yet, but then again I take it to heart about SAFTEY FIRST!!! My granddad work hearing aids. He had the darndest time with them.

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I use both depending on the type of work. Muffs are easier to put on and take off with nasty, dirty hands (bless them all!). If you have a pet, be aware that the foam ones may get eaten. My ferocious little Chihuahua has eaten a couple of pairs.

So, this ol' boy is talking to his pal and says, "My hearing used to be real bad until I got this new hearing aid. Now I can hear just fine!"

His buddy says, "What kind is it?"

"Oh, about twelve-thirty."sad.gif

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ive heard that about the tinnitus thing...diet.....long live iced coffee!....ringggggg


Hear hear! 'cept I'm drinking hot coffee up here these days....'scuse me the phone is ringing....wait a minut, I'm on a land line... :D

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I seem to remember from somewhere that the noise of metal cutting: drilling, milling,turning etc. is particularly damaging.



I can see that. I've also heard ( though not verified) that electric motors emit a frequency not necessarily audible but still damaging, I suspect that is true with frequency drive motors especially, some of them really scream. I don't worry much about it though, the motors I generally hang around are in mechanical / boiler rooms, and I always wear hearing protection in there.

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I found this site from the uk ( http://www.justears.org/ear-defenders.asp ) look for the musicians earplugs. 180 pounds which is $276. I think Mark Aspery was talking about this sort of plug. Here is the description from the site: Custom made noise suppression plugs with varying filters for different attenuation.
ER-9 attenuates 9dB, ER-15 attenuates 15dB and ER-25 attenuates 25dB of relatively flat sound reduction across all frequencies.

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