New Style Kinyon

[youngdylan]

In a few recent threads there's been a bit talked about the new style Kinyon using a leaf spring and an underslung cylinder. I thought I'd start a new thread to see if anyone's seen one/ used one and if so have they any comments or opinions.

Me? I've only seen pictures but it kinda appeals to me for a number of reasons, some of which are

1. Not too tall
2. Cylinder pulls instead of pushes = more balanced up/down forces on the tup = better control
3. It doesn't use an off centre guide system

Thoughts?

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Have you ever seen "quick exhaust valves"? These mount right on the cylinder port. When pressure is sent to that port it acts normal and the air goes into the cylinder. When pressure is relieved it opens and dumps the exhaust to the atmosphere right there at the port! This means you don't have to force all of the exhaust air back through the plumbing and main valve. Should speed up the stroking and increase the force both. I'd try them on both ends of the cylinder.

Edit: Might not be able to use it on the Kinyon, doesn't the treadle control choke the down exhaust?

Edited March 22, 2010 by Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

We don't have to worry about cushioning at the bottom of the stroke, hopefully it's set up so the dies hit together before the piston crashes into the head. At the top of the stroke there can be the possibility of the piston contacting the head. This is often overcome with a generous extra travel at the top or with springs or other mechanical cushion. If everything is adjusted properly it's rarely a problem when the hammer is stroking, it's when you let off so the ram goes up to park or when doing single blows that things can be at risk.

If you were using the above "quick exhaust valves", a pilot operated check valve could be placed on the outlet. This would get a signal from another little roller valve positioned so that it can read when the ram is nearing the top of the stroke. This would then close the check valve trapping a cushion of air in the end of the cylinder. This can only be done effectively right at the port. If it's done at the exhaust port on the main valve it would be ineffective. This is because all of the air in the plumbing would have to be compressed to form the cushion as well.

Now that I think about it, there's no reason a pilot operated check valve couldn't be mounted on the cylinder port even with out the quick exhaust valve.

"Simple" is always a worthy goal, but added complication that enhances performance is OK too.

[HWHII]

Ron Kinyon sent me a sketch of his new MonteHammer to post. He is going to have plumbing kits avaliable if you want to build one. The kit includes the cylinder, all valves, hose, fittings and conectors for about $850.00. Pm me if you are interested. For those who might have miss the first thread where this topic came up. This Hammer will run on a compresor as small as 3hp 110V. It is pushing the limit but it will work.

hammersketch2.bmp

[youngdylan]

Have you ever seen "quick exhaust valves"? These mount right on the cylinder port. When pressure is sent to that port it acts normal and the air goes into the cylinder. When pressure is relieved it opens and dumps the exhaust to the atmosphere right there at the port! This means you don't have to force all of the exhaust air back through the plumbing and main valve. Should speed up the stroking and increase the force both. I'd try them on both ends of the cylinder.

Edit: Might not be able to use it on the Kinyon, doesn't the treadle control choke the down exhaust?

Thanks Grant

Sadly it does control the exhaust. Shame really because these valves really piqued my curiousity.


That said, on mine, the tup usually "parks" with the main valve set to sned down pressure and exhaust the "up" chamber. Kinda wondering if it might be worth trying one on just the top chamber or would this loose a bit of control?

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Thanks Grant

Sadly it does control the exhaust. Shame really because these valves really piqued my curiousity.


That said, on mine, the tup usually "parks" with the main valve set to sned down pressure and exhaust the "up" chamber. Kinda wondering if it might be worth trying one on just the top chamber or would this loose a bit of control?

Sounds to me like you could still use one on the down end of the cylinder. I believe you only need to control the exhaust from the up end.

[youngdylan]

Sounds to me like you could still use one on the down end of the cylinder. I believe you only need to control the exhaust from the up end.

so what is it I usually preach to others ...... "suck it and see" methinks...... almost literally in this case!

Planning on having a major revamp on my standard Kinyon. There's been plenty of recent meaty discussion on new/old Kinyon styles recently with quite a few ideas/ configurations to try out. I do absolutely love what I do for a living, most of the time, but I do wish I could find more time to play/experiment with my toys tools.

I'll have a good old play with the standard Kinyon but I think my KA75ish is more or less as evolved as it can be, well maybe try and shoehorn longer cylinders into. Speaking of KA's Grant, how come you designed the KA75 a striker only and didn't make it auto cycle?

Is it just me or is there something about air hammers that gets under your skin?

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I have done a few auto KA's. But I have a short attention span. Sold it off before developing further. As it stands, it will run off a little push-cart compressor just fine. And can be moved with a hand truck. And it's not intimidating. And the wifes say "Well isn't that just cute"? Instead of "You ain't bringing that huge greasy thing home, are you"?

Take you 15 minutes and $30.00. Try it!

[Glenn Gilmore]

Well Grant,
When my wife left me and a few days later an old friend called me to see if I was interested in a 2b I said to myself, since no one else was there to talk to, "If I can't have a wife I might as well have another power hammer". Done deal.

[youngdylan]

"You ain't bringing that huge greasy thing home, are you"?

I'm sure that what my mother said about some of the girlfriends I took home

[Dillon Sculpture]

I have done a few auto KA's. But I have a short attention span. Sold it off before developing further. As it stands, it will run off a little push-cart compressor just fine. And can be moved with a hand truck. And it's not intimidating. And the wifes say "Well isn't that just cute"? Instead of "You ain't bringing that huge greasy thing home, are you"?

Take you 15 minutes and $30.00. Try it!

Grant,

Have any aspirations of developing a mechanical hammer for production? Its amazing what you did with the engine block hammer, how about a Bradley knock off? The eccentric seems to be a key factor in the success of my hammer.


YD...

Brrrrrrrmmmmmmmm... Brrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmm... Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmm...

[boilermaker8]

g'day is there any plans available for the new style kinyon?

[monstermetal]

I am going to be building one of these in the coming weeks for a local Knife maker.. He has contacted Ron and no, there are no plans. He did offer up a simple sketch

I will document the build we do though if you would like the info..

Larry

[HWHII]

g'day is there any plans available for the new style kinyon?

If you are interested the sketch provided by Ron is the only plans available right now. I can give you his contact info if you PM me. He is always willing to help.

[boilermaker8]

Larry, that would be great to see the build, i am looking forward to it. HWHII, i will PM you as soon as i can work out how. thankyou both for your replies. :D

[pbforge]

In a few recent threads there's been a bit talked about the new style Kinyon using a leaf spring and an underslung cylinder. I thought I'd start a new thread to see if anyone's seen one/ used one and if so have they any comments or opinions.

Me? I've only seen pictures but it kinda appeals to me for a number of reasons, some of which are

1. Not too tall
2. Cylinder pulls instead of pushes = more balanced up/down forces on the tup = better control
3. It doesn't use an off centre guide system

Thoughts?

youngdylan

I would have posted this earlier but have been pretty busy.

I built one of the Ron Kinyon new style hammers last year with Monty and two other members of our club. If you look at the picture posted by HWHII that is me on the far left. I had seen a picture of Ron's new style hammer a few years ago and knew right away that was the style I wanted to build. It is a simpler design and looked less costly to build than Ron's first design. After I saw the first picture I told Monty I wanted to build one of these but then I got seriously ill in late 2007 and had to put my plans on hold. In early 2009 I was talking to Monty while he was wintering down in Arizona and mentioned again I would like to build one and asked him if he was interested? I must have caught him at the right time because he got the itch as well. After he got back from Arizona in April of last year we started out with just the pictures we had of Ron's hammer and kicked our ideas back and forth. I also had a set of plans for Ron's fist style hammer I bought from ABANA and Monty has one of Ron's first style pneumatic hammers. Between that, the pictures, and after I picked the brain of another smith from out east we came up with a basic idea of our design. Monty drew up the design and sent it to me to see what I thought. His design had it with a with a separate foot control valve but since my shop is full I wanted a treadle instead so we went with that. I also wanted a removable hammer guide so we could remove the hammer head if need be. We were going to make our hammer face plates 6" X 6" so we were not going to be able to slide the hammer out of the top of the hammer guide. We began and Monty found a good deal on the base plates, hammer face plates, die plates and anvils and I rounded up the rest of the parts. Monty built the prototype and with his help the rest of us built our hammers over a couple of weekends as a group project at his shop until we had the frames and anvils mounted to the base plates and the heads assembled as well. I live 75 miles away from Monty's so I took mine home to finish it. The other guys are all retired and live close to Monty so you can see in the picture they are a little further along than mine. What I did different on mine than what the others did was to locate my exhaust valve on the left side pointing backwards and up much further off the floor to keep the exhaust port from blowing debris up off the floor towards me when I used it. I also wanted to keep my exhaust shorter to reduce exhaust friction. I also did my exhaust valve control linkage differently as you can see in the pictures. For the pneumatics I also used some different air fittings on mine. I added two check valves to avoid back pressure on the exhaust from one side of the control valve to the other and also a bleed valve so I could park the head on a piece of wood. I am taller so I also wanted my anvil taller and made the adjustments in the back column just like Ron shows in his diagram. Our spring is also heavier than what Ron uses but it seems to work very well anyway. We didn't have Ron;s spring measurements at that time we built ours but I found a spring shop that would custom make them for us with the bushings for $50.00 each if I drew up a design and sent it to them. The pneumatics seem to work well but I also like Chris Coleman's control design and may put that on this hammer down the road. Here are a couple of pictures of my finished hammer. It hits very hard at 70 lbs of air and I am very happy with it! This is my first post here but I have been reading for awhile. Hope this helps.

[John Larson]

Very nice workmanship!

[CooperNSmith]

Maybe this is a silly question, but... What is the purpose of the leaf spring?

Doesn't the air cylinder provide enough flexibility/elasticity?

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

The air in the cylinder is flexible/elastic enough, but the rod and cylinder are not.

[pbforge]

Some people have been asking about plans for building these hammers. I started putting together the plans last year and I am just going to add a few more photos and they will be complete. I have also been talking with Monty to make sure it was okay with him to go ahead and release them. Monty spoke with Ron Kinyon and called me this morning to tell me Ron gave his approval for me to release them. Ron did specify that the hammer be referred to as the "New Style Ron Kinyon Hammer". The plans include CAD drawings of the main hammer parts with a detailed description of how to assemble everything. I am also including lots of photos.I have contacted Glenn to see about distributing them on Iforgeiron and will update you here when I have more information.

Thanks,

pbforge

pine bough forge

[danpfan]

Hey, any more word on plans being available? Sure sounds like an interesting first hammer for me.

Dan Pfanenstiel
greatwaveforge.com

[pbforge]

Plans are done. Pretty much step by step with prints. 30 pages with lots of color photos. Just working out the selling details. I never thought it would take this long to get them out the door.

Thanks for your patience.

pbforge

Here is the cover and table of contents. It will give you an idea of what is included.

6/2/10 - Just replaced the Table of Contents PDF. Attached the wrong one.

Hammer cover page Rev 1.0.pdf

Table of Contents Rev 1.0.pdf

[monstermetal]

Id be interested in having a set when you figure out how to sell them..

[cavala]

so if you had pai for the original plans should you get a discount for the new style

[pbforge]

Ron Kinyon plans for his "New Style Pneumatic Hammer" are finally available. Thanks for your patience.

The manual is 30 pages of instructions including parts and suppliers list, CAD drawings and 30 hi quality color photos on the last 10 pages. It is assembled and bound in a clear cover folder. I am attaching the table of contents to this post. The price is $30.00 which includes postal fees within the lower 48 states. I will have to let you know actual mailing costs if you want them sent outside the USA so email me if that is the case. As a courtesy to Ron Kinyon I did ask him if he was interested in being a part of releasing the plans but he has other projects he is working on. I also tried to work something out with Glenn here on Iforgeiron but his members store will not be up for awhile yet.

I will start sending the plans out on July 1st and you can pay by check, money order or through PayPal to account degrub@frontiernet.net.

Send check or money order and return mailing address to:

Paul Branch
1310 - 216th Ave
New Richmond, WI 54017

You can PM me here or email me directly at degrub@frontiernet.net. I will be off line from June 19th through June 27th and I will not be able to respond to PMs or emails.

Thanks, Paul - Pine Bough Forge

Table of Contents Rev 1.0.pdf