Ornamental Ironwork drafting?

[Bryce Masuk]

Does anyone have suggestions on books teaching about drafting for ornamental ironwork?

I am mostly interested in the complex design's that involve pieces that seem to be using pieces that must be calculated or geometrically constructed in some way or perfectly drawn with trial and error



I know there must be some methods to the process.

I am likely missing them

I have managed to copy the work of some of the drawings but it is very very time consuming and I just just cant reproduce it like I should be able to with most things

Not that I would like to copy the work of others in metal but to understand how and why may eventually help me

[Bryce Masuk]

Does anyone have suggestions on books teaching about drafting for ornamental ironwork?

I am mostly interested in the complex design's that involve pieces that seem to be using pieces that must be calculated or geometrically constructed in some way or perfectly drawn with trial and error



I know there must be some methods to the process.

I am likely missing them

I have managed to copy the work of some of the drawings but it is very very time consuming and I just just cant reproduce it like I should be able to with most things

Not that I would like to copy the work of others in metal but to understand how and why may eventually help me

Just for instance how what approach would you take to drawing something like this to scale Accurately

if everything done in a grid typically and just freehanded?

[NeatGuy]

Just for instance how what approach would you take to drawing something like this to scale Accurately

if everything done in a grid typically and just freehanded?

If you just want to copy it use an Opaque projector to project on to a sheet of steel or paper, scale it accordingly and trace it.

I also use Solidworks and Autocad.

brad

[Mainely,Bob]

If you are looking for a process that will allow you to accurately transfer lines and change scale then I`d look at info on "lofting" of boats.The folks who did the lofting were responsible for taking the blueprints and turning them into things like full or half scale drawings or patterns for the workers out on the floor.
Someone good at lofting could also either enlarge or reduce a design and still have it come out looking good with "fair lines".Not easy when you`re talking about something with compound curves like a boat hull.

Not being skilled at lofting I generally snap a pic and then write down a few measurements such as height,width,etc.
Once you have that info you can take the pic and run a grid over it and then get all your other measurements by measuring the part in the grid and comparing to that known dimension.

[Bryce Masuk]

I am not really interested in tracing it or scaling it up yet until I develop the pattern I am pretty sure I can draw what I would need by hand on my welding table


I am more interested in how scrolls like this are drawn from scratch with the correct spacing and accurate connections

I just bought some 8 square per inch graph paper usually I just make my own graph on the paper but its pretty boring


I see many types of scrolls seem to be drawn using a compass or some kind of triangulation or even math forumulas

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Nothing can replace a good eye and a pencil and paper! There's engineering and there is art. Choose!

[NeatGuy]

I am not really interested in tracing it or scaling it up yet until I develop the pattern I am pretty sure I can draw what I would need by hand on my welding table


I am more interested in how scrolls like this are drawn from scratch with the correct spacing and accurate connections

I just bought some 8 square per inch graph paper usually I just make my own graph on the paper but its pretty boring


I see many types of scrolls seem to be drawn using a compass or some kind of triangulation or even math forumulas

There are many simple method of making scrolls. I will attempt to outline on that I use so i hope I can make it relatively clear.

Refer to attached drawing.

This method uses the golden ratio to make a scroll. I like it because It is fairly easy to create scrolls of a desired size.

1) Start by creating a a square 1 unit x 1 unit (any unit). draw an arc from corner to corner with a radius of one.

2 )Repeat with another square and arc 1 unit x 1 unit rotating 90 degrees to the previous (clockwise in the drawing).

3) again rotate 90 degrees clockwise this time draw a square and arc 2 unit x 2 unit.

4) repeat this process using with the radiuses 1,1,2,3,5,8,13, 21 ... ((n-1) + n).

of course you do not have to use the squares but it helps to visualize.


Hope that was clear enough and helps.Scroll.pdf

brad

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

That's only an approximation of one simple scroll. A true scroll does not consist of radii and iron work would become very boring if every scroll was made to this limited design. The object is often to fill a space in a pleasing manner. There are equations that can yield very pleasing scrolls, but I still think nothing can match a good eye because a scroll is a part of a greater whole and no equation can take into account how it fits.

[Bryce Masuk]

Yeah neat guy I understand that kind of scroll

there is also this for a different kind

My link


Your right grant there is art and engineering but somewhere they mesh,

nature is art perfectly engineered so it seems

I dont know I know I am missing something but I am unsure what it is... maybe I will find it in the next 20 years or something I just know there is a easier/better method than what i am doing now

My link


I know I can make things much better than I do now I have the ability it seems I lack the true experiance in design to produce what I want on paper enough that I am entirely happy to progress into it fully


you can see my little website here www.themetalsculptor.com
everything I have made so far is without a real drawing just a rough sketch and guesstimated diamention and then I go to work,

I am not happy with any of it I know if i can get everything down perfectly on paper that I can make everything like it should be and if plan it properly it should turn out close to how i want it.

for me to progress I need to set defined limits and diamentions and make myself produce them nearly exactly as drawn if you cant do that then your just screwing around guessing and fixing/changing things all the time (not that you could ever expect to get rid of that but as little as possible is usually best)

Besides if I was a real apprentice blacksmith its what I would be expected to do just like I do now with fabrication.

except the apprentice doesnt make all the decision's/designs he just makes the pieces and assembles them

I guess I am doing everything ass backwards story of my life.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I've seen many blacksmiths who can turn a scroll at the anvil that is incredibly eye-sweet in no time. I would use your method if I was machining them out on my CNC. Learn to sketch and learn to turn a scroll. “Become one with the force”. There aren't enough equations devised to match a good eye. To me that is what this craft is about. Both of the examples shown are, to my eye, rather ugly approximations. Sun-flowers reflects a beautiful symmetry and a mathematical uniformity on average. And yet no two are alike. There is incredible potential in your mind and hands, use them, exercise them and with practice they will learn without you even consciously thinking about it.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

You can want to become a decent cook, get some excellent recipes and follow them to the letter. If you want to become a master chef, throw away the recipes and learn to create!

[Fe-Wood]

Grant- I love your new avatar, Frank you old devil How you been? I had a good laugh, Thanks!

Bruce-
Look up french curves. That is a good place to start for good fare curves and as Frank, Uh, I mean Grant says, the eye is the best judge. As far as scale, I've used an overhead projector shot on a wall with the perimeter points or full scale measurements as the guide pre drawn on the wall, then just adjust the lens or projector until it fits. Sorta like lofting only different.

[Bryce Masuk]

I've seen many blacksmiths who can turn a scroll at the anvil that is incredibly eye-sweet in no time. I would use your method if I was machining them out on my CNC. Learn to sketch and learn to turn a scroll. “Become one with the force”. There aren't enough equations devised to match a good eye. To me that is what this craft is about. Both of the examples shown are, to my eye, rather ugly approximations. Sun-flowers reflects a beautiful symmetry and a mathematical uniformity on average. And yet no two are alike. There is incredible potential in your mind and hands, use them, exercise them and with practice they will learn without you even consciously thinking about it.

I am just using it as a guideline to start with I can eyeball things as well at work I am not encouraged to measure "just make it like so, and if it looks right its done right"

sometimes thinking solves problems other times it just complicates things, I am just trying to grasp as many idea's as i can find so i can find my own perspective in all things in life

blacksmithing without design is like a gun without aim

I find that since there are so many option's Idea's pop into my head as I work and I come up with more idea's then I can make in a month and end up cluster F***ed with 12 projects on the floor half finished.

and then I keep starting more, practicing random techniques

what I really want is some really good idea's worth finishing and well planned then i can make it happen

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

blacksmithing without design is like a gun without aim

Nobody said anything about "without design". But I do recall saying something about using your brain and a pencil and paper and learn to sketch.

[Frosty]

Geeze Bryce it seems like you ask a question and then set out a bunch of parameters most of us are unfamiliar with including how an aprentice should or should not do it.

Were it me or I were setting a student to the task, I'd probably either send him/er to a T square, triangle and french curve drafting class or show him/er a trick or two with a piece of string and cylinder, say a piece of dowl. Maybe suggest sending him/er to a sketching 101 class like Grant is suggesting.

If, on the other hand, you seek perfection seek Alah. I suggest that with all due respect to you and other faiths.

Frosty

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Well, I suppose you could get the King Iron Works Catalog and DXF files and do it Mr. Potato Head style. I have dazzled people over the year with how closely my forgings match my drawings. What they never knew was............I did the forgings first!

[K. Bryan Morgan]

At the risk of getting my head bit off. Here use this. These SketchUp plugins will do everything you want and even tell you how much stock to start with. All free to use, including SketchUp. Here is the URL. http://www.drawmetal.com/ I've been told all my adult life. Work smart not hard.

[youngdylan]

Nothing can replace a good eye and a pencil and paper! There's engineering and there is art. Choose!

I'll have both thank you very much Grant!

Bryce, have a peek at my website. I do a lot of "curvilinear flowing" work. All my presentation drawings are done freehand. Flat CAD elevations look utterly lifeless. All work is 3D and a curve made from round bar looks so different in the flesh than it's "silhouette". I use TurboCAD (autoCAD ish) .... its cheap and easy to use, for some of the more "engineering" side of things and as a geometric tool (eg working on helical staircases) but sometimes you gotta to doodle.

All my ""scrolls"" are made sketching in chalk on the bench and slowly bending freehand (no jigs ... yet). I don't get hung up about following the lines exactly, it's all about how the steel looks, especially when blending radii.

[Mainely,Bob]

Here`s my take on both design and getting the work done.
You can either get wrapped around the axle over knowing the PROPER way of doing things with the "Golden Mean" and the mathematical balance of whatever,or you can develope your hand and eye and get the work out.

If you want the axle approach then there are a lot of programs for that tower you`re attached to right now.Use them to calculate and plot,that`s their strong suit.Get a printer big enough and you have a full sized pattern.That`s how the big boys do it and they get big bucks too.
I`ve worked from those patterns and the end result,if followed to the letter,looked like what it was,computer generated.

If you want Art and something that looks like it grew between the uprights(the organic look)then you have to take that pattern and plot the high points and use your eye and hand to tweak it and make it pleasing to another human eye.After you tweak enough patterns you`ll find yourself just refering to the pattern and then going for it.Further down the road you`ll just be freehanding what you know is right.

Best use and filling of space is an approach but it`s not art.
All those mathematically correct scrolls that you fill that space with all spring from the same source and are just derivatives of a single equation.How pleasing would a computer generated field of all the same flowers be?
Define the space with math and engineering,fill the space with art.

BTW-Along with all those drawing aids others have mentioned I`d add flexible battens of various lengths.For laying out longer curved lines and fairing transitions from one curve to another they are my most used tool.

[Dillon Sculpture]

I have been drawing scrolls freehand for over 15 years and still cant get it right. A evolution has taken place in my work and I think that is where you train your eye to see the balance and the NEGATIVE space not the line.

[Francis Trez Cole]

And who ever said the orinmental iron work is not a art but a craft.

Grant watch out were the huskeies rome.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

The original post was asking about how to calculate or geometrically construct such things as scrolls. Most of my comments address that.

Sure, there are parts of a functional thing like a gate that need to be "engineered". And we often need accurate drawings for the frame and such. But, don't confuse drafting with engineering. Engineering is a design process that can be done on a napkin. Drafting is the accurate rendering of those parts that require it.

[gazilla]

I like your point of view Grant.


This piece started out as a rough sketch, I made a few scale drawings on 1/10th and once satisfied a full scale drawing of one "wing". The feet were forged out of square 30mm steel, the other parts out of 25mm and 15mm round etc., with volumes calculated to obtain the size needed. I made a trial piece of every feature before making each part. All this to stay as closely as possible to the original drawing. But still, there's a moment you need to leave the design behind and thrust your eyes and hands.
The most useful thing we learned in the few drawing lessons in blacksmithing school is to carry along a small sketchbook (100mm x 150mm, pocket size). I don't think there's a shortcut to learn drawing/design/forging, it takes practice and time. Examining work you like, at home and abroad, helps too.

[Mainely,Bob]

Now THAT`S Art,right there.I don`t care who you are!
Beautiful work there,Gazilla.

[Blakksmyth]

For the OP.

I use Rhinoceros to create all my designs. I have used a previous posted thumbnail to demonstrate achieving an accurate reproduction. Of course, your original design can be done in the negative space. The point is that using a cad program to layout your designs can give you a very accurate base for material lengths, weights, center of gravity etc and even interference fit for locks, hinges and other components that have to work together without touching or binding.

You can lay a grid over the drawing on the computer, then print it off and use it as a reference for a large paper plan grid for use in the forge to layout your work.
I think Rhinoceros is a reasonably priced product considering how versatile it is.

Cheers,
Rob Kenning
Secretary
Artist Blacksmiths Association South Australia