tcrane Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I have been blacksmithing for about a Year. I received a Guillotine tool this today. I have some scrap 3/4" X 6" X 3' carbon steel plate that has a vary hard 1/2" X 1/2" steel strip molded into length of one edge that I tried to cut with a chop saw. It was a scrapped ware plat that came off a modern road grinder. I was able to cut down to the hardened edge then I about wore out the abrasive disk trying to get through the hardened edge to make a fuller for the Guillotine. Do you know if there is a chop saw cutting disk made that will cut through the hardened 1/2" of the plate or would I have to torch it? I also have a Keller power hacksaw but I don't believe the Blade will cut it ether (haven't tried it). I also use a coal forge but don't want to go through the re-tempering or even if it would be possible. Any suggestions? Thanks much. tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spears Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 If the hardened strip along the edge is made of the same material ("carbon steel" just hardened), you could try heating it up cherry red with a torch to anneal that portion and then proceed to try cutting. That is if you have access to a torch. Spears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcrane Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 Not absolutely sure if it is Carbon Steel. It's molded or sandwiched into the carbon steel. I put on the grinder and it made vary few sparks and probably mostly from the surrounding carbon steel. The hardened material appears to be molded into the steel by 1/2" X 1/2" strips side by side. The face side or wear side of the edge has been warn back to reveal the hardened material about 2/3 the way Back into the steel Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I have one where it looks like carbide strip was put into the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkunkler Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Cut through the part thats cuttable and break off the hard part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 If the edge material is inserted into the Cutting edge, sometimes called "knives" but usually just called "edges," it's tungsten carbide, cut down to it and then break it. Forget annealing, it ain't gonna happen. Heck, a torch isn't going to cut the carbide either, it'll simply deflect the oxy jet and splatter YOU with molten steel. Yeah, I changed an edge or two a week for some years working for DOT Alaska Highways maintenance. We didn't use many of the carbide cutting edges in our camp, too expensive and you couldn't sharpen them in use. We'd sharpen the edge by rolling the blade (that's angling the blade in the vertical plane) and letting it grind on the pavement. This does virtually nothing to the carbides and those edges were almost twice as expensive. Anyway, even edges without carbides are a MOTHER BEAR to use for the steel. For the most part they're "vascowear" or a close equivalent sporting around 120+pts of Carbon and wicked strong alloying metals to lend them enough toughness to stop a 72,000lb road grader from 30mph to zero without breaking the edge. The equipment operator better be belted in and even then you're likely to take damage. For wear resistance they also have a few % tungsten, just to kill any saw blade that dares touch one. Heck, they eat grinding disks and stones like candy. A cup stone, 9" right angle grinder and red heat are the only "reasonably" easy way to grind the things I know of. Uh, yeah, there's nothing reasonable about being THAT close to THAT much red hot steel. It's hard to walk away from these things if the price is good but you'd almost undoubtedly be time and money ahead leaving them be. Heck, the only really useful shop thing I know about being made from grader edge is a bar shear. And, yeah, I have a few hundred lbs of the things right outside the shop. Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Frosty; That just intrigues me! I have been wanting to make some stone axes and this metal sounds like the real deal! I have a six-foot chunk of scraper blade from a land plane that the driver left in my yard when they leveled the subdivision next door. I'd guess it to be similar steel? It is around 5/8" thick at the center tapering to knife edged at the sides. I think it does NOT have the carbide knives... good, right? Could I possibly use it as bit material? Have you tried forge welding it? My chisel for Kurt pictured in an earlier thread was a big hit and the local masons he works with are so covetous of it that he is almost scared to take it out of the tool satchel. If I had a great stone axe for him they'd really turn green! Clay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Frosty; That just intrigues me! I have been wanting to make some stone axes and this metal sounds like the real deal! I have a six-foot chunk of scraper blade from a land plane that the driver left in my yard when they leveled the subdivision next door. I'd guess it to be similar steel? It is around 5/8" thick at the center tapering to knife edged at the sides. I think it does NOT have the carbide knives... good, right? Could I possibly use it as bit material? Have you tried forge welding it? My chisel for Kurt pictured in an earlier thread was a big hit and the local masons he works with are so covetous of it that he is almost scared to take it out of the tool satchel. If I had a great stone axe for him they'd really turn green! Clay I don't know what a stone axe is other than a knapped blade. If you're talking about chopping stone a cutting edge would probably work pretty well. The piece of scraper blade is probably the same or close as grader edge. Do you have a pic of it? If you're going to take a pic get one of the bolt holes and one of the end profile. No, I haven't tried forge welding it and don't know anyone who has tried. Edges are a mother bear to forge, even at high heat it doesn't want to move. That's what I've heard, I haven't tried forging it either. You might try taking a disk grinder to it to see how hard it is to grind. A thought just came to me, if you know what piece of equipment it came off just call the dealer and ask them. I know Caterpillar is generally happy to answer questions like that. Best of luck, Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Not absolutely sure if it is Carbon Steel. It's molded or sandwiched into the carbon steel. I put on the grinder and it made vary few sparks and probably mostly from the surrounding carbon steel. The hardened material appears to be molded into the steel by 1/2" X 1/2" strips side by side. The face side or wear side of the edge has been warn back to reveal the hardened material about 2/3 the way Back into the steel Thanks No sparks? This sounds like it is going to be pretty hard! Something that doesn't spark or gives just tiny little red sparks will not be easy to anneal. If I had a piece of this stuff, I would not use it for a guillotine tool. I am not creative enough for that. There is one application crying out for hard stuff: stone carving tools. I tried making a mortar and pestle out of a granite boulder, and found that I had to have a big box of firesharps that had to all be resharpened at the end of each session. It may be possible to cut those things off using a technique a buddy showed me. Use a cutoff disk to get all the steel out from around the insert in the vicinity of the cut. Then, try a silicon carbide masonry wheel. If this bogs down, get all the junk out from around the insert that you can, then make the last cut with a water-cooled diamond tile saw. Make sure you do this cut wet. DAMHIKT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 I would use a chop saw and get a good quality wheel or numerous cheap ones and cut real slow very little pressure when you cut something like this make sure you cut face the thinnest side up into the wheel so the wheel is making the "least" contact with the metal otherwise it will probley burn out your saw and blow though disks just like if you were cutting flat bar try one way then the other and the difference is night and day its going to take some time but it will do it I have cut though 3 inch round on a chopsaw when a bandsaw blade broke and i had none its not the best method but it can get the job done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 I don't know what a stone axe is other than a knapped blade. If you're talking about chopping stone a cutting edge would probably work pretty well. The piece of scraper blade is probably the same or close as grader edge. Do you have a pic of it? If you're going to take a pic get one of the bolt holes and one of the end profile. No, I haven't tried forge welding it and don't know anyone who has tried. Edges are a mother bear to forge, even at high heat it doesn't want to move. That's what I've heard, I haven't tried forging it either. You might try taking a disk grinder to it to see how hard it is to grind. A thought just came to me, if you know what piece of equipment it came off just call the dealer and ask them. I know Caterpillar is generally happy to answer questions like that. Best of luck, Frosty the Lucky Not a knapped blade... a blade for chopping stone. They work specially well for dressing the surfaces/edges. The jackhammer blade that I made Kurt's chisel from WAS HARD... even red hot. Grant says they are mostly made of 9260 which is similar to S5 steel (but cheaper I assume). I did a lot of pounding to shape that chisel and compromised a dab on my preferred shape due to exhaustion. NOW I have an Anyang though and NO FEAR!(:-) I can take on even the dreaded grader blades! (well... MAYBE). This blade that I have has square (about 3/4")bolt holes about every foot in the center. It narrows at the ends (due to wear I think) but is about 7" wide for most of it's length. It looks like a giant boomerang without the bend. HMMMmmm... IF I could get a bend in it and then create some sort of giant thrower like a TITANIC trap machine... I could bring down jet fighters with this thing!!!! I'll try to get some pics later today. One problem with such a thrower might be that it would be hard to find a safe testing area in North America... and IF it returned welllll... maybe my brother-in-law would fire the first test for me!?!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I have had very good luck cutting a wide range of steels including harden tool steel, monel and inconel with a 6" grinder and a .045 cutting wheel. Score your cut and then work it down slowly being careful to keep the heat down. I have found even with a chop saw a thinner blade seams to work best. I like a 3/32" in thickness for most applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Not a knapped blade... a blade for chopping stone. They work specially well for dressing the surfaces/edges. The jackhammer blade that I made Kurt's chisel from WAS HARD... even red hot. Grant says they are mostly made of 9260 which is similar to S5 steel (but cheaper I assume). I did a lot of pounding to shape that chisel and compromised a dab on my preferred shape due to exhaustion. NOW I have an Anyang though and NO FEAR!(:-) I can take on even the dreaded grader blades! (well... MAYBE). This blade that I have has square (about 3/4")bolt holes about every foot in the center. It narrows at the ends (due to wear I think) but is about 7" wide for most of it's length. It looks like a giant boomerang without the bend. HMMMmmm... IF I could get a bend in it and then create some sort of giant thrower like a TITANIC trap machine... I could bring down jet fighters with this thing!!!! I'll try to get some pics later today. One problem with such a thrower might be that it would be hard to find a safe testing area in North America... and IF it returned welllll... maybe my brother-in-law would fire the first test for me!?!! It should work pretty well for a stone dressing tool but I'd avoid using the part with the carbides, they're brittle. Better than a coffee mug but not a lot. I don't know how well it'll forge either, I know guys have tried it but don't recall what they had to say. Please let us know what you try, how it works and don't forget to include pics. Please feel free to leave the list of . . . %^#&#&^$*!!! WORDS! spoken during the process out. Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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