jmeineke Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I was wondering if anyone has any experience working with A2. I recently acquired a nice sized piece of it from a machine shop. From what I understand, Chris Reeve and Phil Hartsfield both use A2 and it is used in combat knives. Can it be hardened in Vermiculite? I have a good reference for the forging temps, etc., but the cooling rate has me concerned. I have no idea how fast a piece loses it's heat in Vermiculite or in a forge that's been heated and then sealed up (standard propane forge, 2" of Kaowool coated with ITC-100 and fire-bricked on the ends would be all that I am capable of right now). I probably will not attempt to do anything with this piece of steel for a while until I get some experience making knives in general (was planning on starting out on RR spikes). Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I was wondering if anyone has any experience working with A2. I recently acquired a nice sized piece of it from a machine shop. From what I understand, Chris Reeve and Phil Hartsfield both use A2 and it is used in combat knives. Can it be hardened in Vermiculite? I have a good reference for the forging temps, etc., but the cooling rate has me concerned. I have no idea how fast a piece loses it's heat in Vermiculite or in a forge that's been heated and then sealed up (standard propane forge, 2" of Kaowool coated with ITC-100 and fire-bricked on the ends would be all that I am capable of right now). I probably will not attempt to do anything with this piece of steel for a while until I get some experience making knives in general (was planning on starting out on RR spikes). Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 I have a concern about your question and not to cause you distress or make you uncomfortable let me explain. You do not harden steel in vermiculite. You put some steels in that product while hot to slow the cooling rate so much that the steel may be annealed and brought to its softest state. I am not sure how you came to this conclusion but that leads me to belive that this is a great time for you to sit back and regroup. Get an understanding of how steel reacts to heat and what your role in that is. Not sure wot you have in the way of equipment but if you have a working forge and some basics you can get along fine. Now for suggestions: Put that steel aside and begin with simple steels like 5160 or a ten series steel. I personally like 1084. Which ever you decide just stay with one steel while you learn. Read wot the maker says about heat treat. When they speak of RC scale numbers learn wot that means. Learn why knives need to have the ability to flex some and how that relates to holding an edge and breaking. And now is the best time for you to invest in new steel for this phase. You will know for sure wot you are using and how it should react to wot you do to it. And not wonder if it is a mystery steel that causes something to go wrong. There is a world of information on heat treating steels availeable to you. Maybe more that you need. But the good news is a lot of it is on this site. Start with the knife heat treat stickies and then bp0078. don't get bogged down by so much data that you get discouraged. Look for specifics about the steel you choose. Keep records of everything you do with one steel and stick to that steel. And no I am not presuming you want to do this for a living. If you want to make a knife make a good one..or a thousand. Wot ever you wish make it right. And Have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmeineke Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 Thanks for the advice. All I have right now is some 1020 and the A2. I'll look into getting some 1084 or 5160 as you suggested (I'll also be playing around with some RR spikes that I bought from McMaster-Carr). I agree that A2 is not for a beginner like myself - I was just trying to understand the properties of this steel a little better for the day I decide to give it a go. I have been reading about annealing, hardening, tempering, normalizing, etc., and think I have a pretty good basic understanding of it all. However, I just went back and read again the specs for A2 and I see my mistake - For whatever reason I got the hardening / annealing process mixed up. I'll restate my question now that I see hardening sounds pretty straight forward (whenever I do end up trying to make something out of it): Can A2 be annealed in Vermiculite, or does it have to be done in a furnace? Being even more specific, will Vermiculite limit the cooling to the "40 degrees F per hour or less" rate that is called for when annealing A2? Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 do you have a good bladesmithing book (like one of Hrisoulas' "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith, The Pattern Welded Blade"). Pretty much any decent bladesmithing book will have a section on alloys that work well and how they should be treated---which as has been noted differs a bit from how the handbooks that are based on 1" sq cross section material samples list the treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmeineke Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 do you have a good bladesmithing book (like one of Hrisoulas' "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith, The Pattern Welded Blade"). Pretty much any decent bladesmithing book will have a section on alloys that work well and how they should be treated---which as has been noted differs a bit from how the handbooks that are based on 1" sq cross section material samples list the treatments. Not yet - I'm still working my way through three blacksmith books right now (The Complete Modern Blacksmith, The Backyard Blacksmith and one other I can't recall at the moment). I've been reading what I can about knives online for now (primarily here on IFI). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 ALVIN-- To your question. Yes you can anneal A2 in Vermiculite. If it is less than a quarter inch you might want to sandwich(clamp) it between two thicker pieces. Heat the three pieces up to above Non mag. Quickly jam them in the vermiculite. Come back the next day about the same time. chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 He asked if you could harden that steel in vermiculite.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I'll restate my question now that I see hardening sounds pretty straight forward (whenever I do end up trying to make something out of it): Can A2 be annealed in Vermiculite, or does it have to be done in a furnace? Being even more specific, will Vermiculite limit the cooling to the "40 degrees F per hour or less" rate that is called for when annealing A2? Thanks again I was referring to his revised question. chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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