Judson Yaggy Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I was lucky enough to get to run Ralph's big hammer (3B) last weekend and get a good look at the set up mentioned above and pictured in the link further up this thread. The plate he has his sitting on is more like 3 or 3.5 inches thick, and the hammer is elevated above the anvil block on dry hardwood timbers, something really dense like rock maple or beech. The advantages are that it raises the whole hammer so that the dies are at a more "normal" hight for us modern smiths, and the whole thing looks way easier to put together than a custom retrofit foundation. He said that it also made it easy to roll the whole assembly into place on rollers from the door of the shop- the hammer is on the other end of the shop from the road. The downside? I suppose that if you want to do heavy duty all day every day industrial forging the base plate set up is not as efficient. Also, I noticed that the floor of his shop has cracked quite a bit around the hammer. Another 10 years and he's probably in for a repair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Well keep in mind a 3 is a 265 lb hammer. A four is a 500 lb hammer. It would be great it it could be bolted to a plate but Im not sure it's doable for a hammer this size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Just let me know Jesse, i would be happy to help you free of charge just to check out your shop! i am currently building explosive storage magazines, each column in the front of the building is over 20,000 pounds! we fly them in with cranes. You need a strong raft matt for that thing. i dont know the dimensions, but if you dig it and let me know the dimensions. A top and bottom matt of #9 rebar would be plenty, but we can put an ungodly amount of steel in that if you guys think its warranted. I have crane connections too. I am using a 40 ton right now on the job i'm running. I'm sure i could get a good rate for anything you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 If it were me, i would pour a deep pad with a few feet to spare on all sides of that machine, put reinforcing steel in it, and use a nice thick plate with nelson studs and anchor the plate into the concrete with reinforcing steel tying the nelson studs into the pad. Saw cut around it, or install felt at the cold joints, and your cracking issue is solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Sask mark, i don't know if i agree with you about older concrete having lighter reinforcing. Depends. I worked on a seismic retrofit at 7th and Grand in downtown Los Angeles. The building was so old it had square "rebar". some of it was inch and a half! Frankly's place is probably pretty stout. Sounds like it was an industrial setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I think you should get Grant down to Long Beach to advise you! I've wanted to meet that dude since i first got on here. He will throw down some serious knowledge about anything dealing with metalworking and hammers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) Must be great bein' a celebrity? Lotta folks would do anything just to rub shoulders with you. Yeah, I know it has a "down-side" too, but......... That being said, I'll pay you to let me help! Let the bidding begin! I do have a certain expertise in this area having installed a number of hammers this size and some much bigger. My advise is always free, I'm just an old retired blacksmith with a fair amount of my marbles still intact (that'ed be a good thing, right?). Edited December 15, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Thats precisely why i offered! Can you imagine how many celebs have to deal with everyone wanting something from them? Plus i just wanted to learn about a huge power hammer. I'm used to carrying rebar around all day, nothing new to go throw in some steel and check out that crazy hammer, i've never seen how they work in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Sask mark, i don't know if i agree with you about older concrete having lighter reinforcing. Depends. I worked on a seismic retrofit at 7th and Grand in downtown Los Angeles. The building was so old it had square "rebar". some of it was inch and a half! Frankly's place is probably pretty stout. Sounds like it was an industrial setting. That's entirely possible. Most concrete in the area that I work in that is pushing 100 years old (including industrial applications) is really hit and miss with reinforcing. Of course I live in an area that's basically as non-seismic as you can get. A lot of times the reinforcing was whatever was avialable at the time, if anything was available at all. These were the days before the codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Ooo, Can I supervise? Sounds like the makins of a great party. Gonna take a pile of beer to get this job done. Shh, don't let them Ozzies hear that we might have beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Grant... I certainly agree that the plate installation would not be possible if the anvil needs to sit more than 8-10 inches below the hammer frame. I certainly don't have experience with all of the larger Nazel hammers. I have seen 3bs and 4Bs installed with the plate, but.... all the Nazel anvils I've seen are short enough so the plate installation would work.. The important factor is that he get proper help from someone who is familiar with that particular hammer AND understands how the hammer works so the proper installation is planned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Yeah, the old hammers had 12:1 anvils and you could get away with the plate install. The total height on them was around 36 - 40", can't remember. When they went to 20:1 They just scabbed on to the bottom of the anvil pattern. Older 4's were 13,000 lbs total. This one was indicated as being 18,000. Never can be sure of weight claims. I had a late-model 5-B and the anvil was over 60" tall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Why cant you pour a concrete pad with a footprint for the hammer, and install an embed (plate) in a depression specific to the height of the anvil? Maybe i am overthinking it? I have worked on hospitals with seismic isolation pads to keep buildings stable when the ground around it is moving. We could get really fancy with it and install a caisson 90 feet into the ground underneath the pad. Then install the plate in the top of that, pour an 8 foot by 8 foot pad around it to support the hammer......oh wait i'm no longer on a large scale design build jobsite. My bad. Either way it would be fun to make a crazy strong foundation for that thing. Unfortunately Grant i haven't had a drink in many years, but i will party it up with diet coke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Yeah, the old hammers had 12:1 anvils and you could get away with the plate install. The total height on them was around 36 - 40", can't remember. When they went to 20:1 They just scabbed on to the bottom of the anvil pattern. Older 4's were 13,000 lbs total. This one was indicated as being 18,000. Never can be sure of weight claims. I had a late-model 5-B and the anvil was over 60" tall. Well It wont be too long and I'll be able to tell you one way or the other... I went up and handed Mike a wad of hundred dollar bills today.... And now have 9 days left to get the thing out and on a truck... Wouldnt be so bad if If the two boats, one a 44 foot er, where out of the way... oh and I have to tear down a shed and move a 40' shipping container to get the crane back there.. Tell me why again I offered to do this? Where did you get the 18,000 lbs Grant? I pulled the 17,000 number out of my Nazel literature.. It only gave one option for a 4N so I figured I was safe with that... I am going to go up an try and get the shed down this week, pull off all the oilers and link's that are removable to keep them from getting busted.... If you want to help on load day Grant I would love for you to be there.. Both of my hammers are one peice guys so this is my first separate anvil gig and the biggest by a good bit..... Also Grant Jesse was talking about wanting me to do the rings and seals in the thing before it leaves... If that happens Im roping you in on that for sure.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Sounds like a daunting task. Do those hammers have pick points? Or do you need to get into a full blown rigging experiment? Big cranes seem to solve lots of demo problems if you can afford them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 It doesnt exacty have pick points... remember we are talking about a machine made it 1923... Cranes where a bit more of a luxury back then I would guess... And you most likely would have had to build a fire in one that ran outside.. ( I know Steam stuff was dying in the 20's but there was probably alot more of it around than anything else) It has a hole though the casting between the front and rear cylinders.. Its about 1 3/4... I think a 1 5/8 solid bar will fit... So that was my first plan.... I got some 4" 4 ply nylon slings that are good for 20 thousand basket pick.... I figure the hammer it self cant weigh more than half of the weight... so 9 thousand pounds... its all about balance, which I can force a bit with an adjustable choker or chain.. as long as the slings are tight up against the hammer I would think a bar through the hole... any words of wisdom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 That hammer is a serious piece of history. Bethlehem steel! When they supplied the steel for the Golden Gate Bridge and shipped it from back east, they were so exact that in order for the ironworkers to install the last piece of steel, they had to wait for the sun to come up and the bridge to expand so that the holes would line up! American steel is disappearing quickly. Sad that companies like that are no longer around. Bethlehem was one of the strongest companies from the industrial era and signal the shift of american economy away from industrial era. Very sad. Sorry just thought it was interesting that Grant mentioned Bethlehem steel with this hammer. Very glad its being saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Yeah tis true... One of my other hammers as well as a big vise came from Geneva steel out in Utah.... Thats kind of funny about the Golden Gate... I used to work on a crew that put up bridge cranes... If we where cutting runway beam for a job at night we would always cut them a 1/8 short because if you cut them dead on the next day when it was warm they wouldnt go... And it really sucks to have a 60' long chunk of 21" X 182 # 25 feet in the air trying to force it in a hole thats a 1/16 too small!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 What size crane are you able to use? How far is the crane to be placed (center pin) from the hammer? The nylons are a good choice. Personally i would use 2 skookums (like a block and tackle) a pully which has the load rating. I would pick the machine in four places at the base using the bolts if they are capable. A sling on each side (each sling going to a bolt on the opposite side) The slings are then connected to one steel cable which is run through the skookum. This way if it is out of balance it is still supported in four points and there is equal weight on all slings. Obviously try to balance as evenly as possible. I am using two skookums to pick up rebar columns that are 7 feet by 7 feet by 24 feet tall and can weigh 20,000. i pick them in the middle and about four feet from the top on the opposite side, they are a little scary to stand, but once in the air they hang perfectly straight. So you hook two cables to the headache ball of the crane (or block if you are using one) Put a skookum or pulley on each cable. Run a cable through each block. Hook your sling to each eye of your cable which is going through the block, and hook each sling to its perspective point on the machine. I would crib up the machine first so i could get to the bolt eyes. The holes may be large enough that you could use steel cable instead of nylon slings. Feed the cables through the bolt holes, or use an appropriate coupler to attach your rigging to the hole. Most quality crane companies should have all the rigging you need, you just need to let them know what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Interesting.... I have a couple of Ropemaster sheaves... I think Ropemasters where made by Skookum..... But yeah I dont have much else for heavy cable rigging I think I understand what your saying.. your basically using the blocks to make the load self level.... I'd like to see a schematic of how you would rig it I am planing on getting a local crane company (probably Ness Crane) to do the pick... Im sure they will have rigging... Probably the best thing to do is take a picture in and talk to the operator and make sure he has the right rigging with him.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Oh yeah, with a machine that heavy i would have the crane use the whip line to stabilize the machine, baybe with a sling around the top of the hammer. It can be done many ways though. You could also use the crane to tilt it enough to put some cribbing under it, and cradle the whole thing with nylons protectin the nylons from sharp edges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 If you are getting a crane over 50 ton, say a 90 i think they come with an oiler, union rules, but depends on who you are using. An oiler is a second operator who helps with counterweights and such, usually an operator in training for that particular rig. i am a union ironworker and we use all union. If you do get a large crane with an oiler they will help you. Ask a salesman to come out and check it out, they will do it for free and give you exactly what you need. Theres more than one way to skin a cat. I wish this was happening here, i would love to come help! The blocks would work well, after looking at the pictures, i might consider throwing a nylon around the upper arm, and run a cable from that nylon through the block and attach two cables or nylons to a bolt hole on both sides on the back of the hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 i can try to get a schematic on here tomorrow, for now i gotta hit the hay. 3 am wake up tomorrow. Feel free to pm me i can give you my numer for more info if you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I got the the 13,000 number from 1923 literature. 17,000 should be the big anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGropp Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Post some pictures of the lifting and moving if you can , This is history in action. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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