brianbrazealblacksmith Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Here's an approach to forge welding that simplifies the process. Instead of forging a scarf, you forge whatever design and leave some parent material as your scarf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Seems like a much easier way to do it, nice stuff!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 seems easy when YOU do it Brian... they look really beautiful, i hope one day i will have those skills.. thanks for the pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Good Morning All BBBs -Nice work as always. Can one set a cluster of these holders on a table and burn drip-less candles without concern? -tks grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pault17 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Mr. Brazeal, very interesting concept. when it can be used, it would be basically the same as a faggot weld, correct? (mind you, I have yet to even really try any kind of welding in the forge, but have watched a few very talented people do it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Elegent - and sooo simple when someone has shown you how to do it, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 so you started with a piece of square stock and forged a leaf on one end, and a "branch" on the other? Then slit and folded it? Then the forge weld? When you weld, do you leave a gap between the pieces and start at the end where the pieces are already joined? I am a bit slow on the uptake with forge welding for some reason. Do you flux the weld? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Really nice and simple. With the extra mass the bits to be welded should hold their welding temperature for a bit longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 That is why I have a TIG welder, doesn't matter how thin it is Not for the purist, but I think if the old time blacksmiths had access to one they would have used it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 This approach solves a few problems associated with forge welding. Unlike the normal faggot weld that is generally just bent over on itself and welded, this approach isolates the material to be welded, so the beginings of the area to be welded is the only part that will be touching your hammer and anvil. This area is also smaller than your hammer to start with, so all your work is going into the area that you are welding. Unlike the more traditional scarves that call for a minimal of hammer blows to complete the weld, this affords more material to work with to secure your welds. Instead of forging the scarves, you get to forge the weld more. I do not beleive that the smiths of the past would have used the modern welders of today the way they are being used today. Forging is done to add strength and structure to the material not just ornamentation. Consider the knife, nothing comes even close to what forging can do for a knife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I do not beleive that the smiths of the past would have used the modern welders of today the way they are being used today. Forging is done to add strength and structure to the material not just ornamentation. Consider the knife, nothing comes even close to what forging can do for a knife. and to quote BIGGUNDOCTOR : That is why I have a TIG welder, doesn't matter how thin it is Not for the purist, but I think if the old time blacksmiths had access to one they would have used it too. Come on Brian, Smiths from the past would have used whatever technology and machinery that was available to them on the materials that they used, much as we do today, If not there would be no progress and we would probably still be in the bronze age technology wise You may be right in saying that they would not have used them as we do today, but in those times there was not the range of steels or alloys that are available now, or a decent power source to use the machinery from, and if they had had them, just think where we would now be on the evolutionary scale. It doesn't mean they would not have used them, and thats probably why there aren't many 18th century aluminium items. I agree entirely with your statement that forging enhances the materials characteristics and aesthetic appearance and it is essential to keep the old skills alive, it is also usually quicker to make items in the traditional way than to try making modern welded together stuff look like traditionally made, (all that extra grinding and filing and weld prepping etc) Love your work and what you are doing, and I salute you for that, keep on spreading the knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 I looked up this thread tonight to show it to Daniel tomarrow for his class. I guess I missed some of this because I have been busy. John B, I stand by what I said, but maybe what I said was misinterpreted. Forging has never been lost, and it is still the most efficient way to move metal around and create strong stuctures. Forging has continued into the 21st century with technology such as robotics, computers, induction heating, presses, and bigger and better hammers than yesteryears blacksmiths may have never imagined. Forging has mostly only continued into the 21st where it is neccessary, like with the aerospace industry and railroad industry for example. The really big stuff where it is essential. They are not going to grind to shape. they will only grind to finish after they have forged as close to finish. And, as far as welding with migs, tigs, or sticks, that is an entirely different technique that has no place in creating stuctures with forging technology. What would be the reason? Suspention parts for cars, trucks, trains, and planes are still forged because that is the only thing that will take the constant stresses. Could you imagine trying to weld those components with other techniques like mig, tigs, or sticks? They would only break like the spring tools like most "modern blacksmiths" make with "modern welders". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I am glad this came back to the top. Impressive work, and so simple. Faggot welding is as easy as it gets! I can do it on a good day, and I get forge time less than once a month. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 i am very impressed with this idea! i will have to give it a go! and on the "if the old time blacksmiths had access to one they would have used it too." front, i would like to add, yes this may be true, but they didnt, so we are able to look back on a more vibrant and creative history of this beautiful trade. if electric welding had been invented earlier, there would be a lot more boring work out there, than there already is, in our modern times......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 good point woody - whilst its cost efective to take the modern route in all this stuff, sometimes we miss some subtlety and beauty that may be found in a more basic/traditional method, where the smith has had to be more inventive/instinctive and has used the intrinsic qualities found naturally in the material. which is no bad thing :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 if stradivarius had modern tools, there would have been no stradivarius violins. he would have mass produced workable items..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 and they would not have been gorgeous other worldy works of unique fabulousness each resonating differently with their own individuality :) there is a lot of Spirit lost with mass produced, even on a small scale... economics dictates, but economicness is not always the best judge of fantasticness :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The important thing to remember here is that every technique or process has its place. It wasn't until just the past few years when cast crankshafts have been able to compete on a durability and strength level with forged cranks and it is still debatable that they are. The thing to keep in mind is that steel still has grain in it and if one uses a tool to cut a hole in it, then the grain is interupted and the material is weakened. When it is forged with the grain in mind, then the object becomes much stronger. My grandfather worked in an industrial forge shop and he taught me a bit about industrial forging design, as well as gave me a mess of industrial forging and metal books. One thing that is critical when designing the dies for the forging of an object is to have the grain to flow properly. This is for forging engineered products, products that peoples lives depend on, so the reliability of their strength is critical. Much more so then a simple table that is welded together in ones shop or a few non structural decorative items. I don't think that a blacksmith would just dump all of their forging knowledge when sparky welders and "modern" machines were encountered. I for one did rather the opposite! I had first learned the sparky welding, cutting and grinding fabrication techniques. When I learned blacksmithing I found that there were a great deal of items that I could produce in less time, with less metal and consuming less materials with forging then with my prior sparky welding, cutting and grinding fabrication techniques! I didn't really anticipate that result. One other thing to think about is that the "old" blacksmith worked in wrought iron, more so then steels and the machining and forging techniques for wrought don't work the same as on steel. Really, a gread number of the modern hand forging techniques would split and harm wrought iron, it's just my personal opinion, but I think this may have something to do with why we are seeing so many new forging techniques. Brains welding technique is a case in point, not really of the above, but more so of what is made now as opposed to what was made before. His technique lookes to be brilliant for welding non descript bits together, but if one were welding a wagon wheel together, then the ends would be required to lay on one another exactly, other wise one would have to alter the bend of the whole tire! Another thing is that metal has only recently become CHEAP. Back in the day if one ran a shop it was CRITICAL that as little metal was wasted as possible, regardless of ones shop being small or large. Now-a-days, a lot of people running a small shop don't think twice about a process producing more waste metal then product! Heck, many small blacksmith shops live on the waste metal of other shops! Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 FANTASTICNESS I LIKE that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert hanford Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 if stradivarius had modern tools, there would have been no stradivarius violins. he would have mass produced workable items..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert hanford Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Oh no, don't start talking about Stradivarius- what was his Secret really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert hanford Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Oh no, don't start talking about Stradivarius- what was his Secret really? I just wish I could figure out how to access Brian's photos. this technique sounds very useful. maybe I will be able to access them on my PC, my mobile device sometimes is not appropriate for this website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Brian was at a BAM conference several years ago and explained the technique to me. I have used it with great sucess over the years. I will forge weld the pair of leaves, quench them and then throm on the pile on the floor.If they survive that then the weld is good. They get re-heated later them they are assembled and shaped for the project so it stress relieves them. I don't think I have had one fail. They amount of weld is pretty long once it is forged out. 1/2 inch stock 3/4 long times two will yield a couple of inches of welded area when drawn out to 3/8 diameter. In the process of the forging the metal will twist and turn thus making the weld line not straight and thus stronger as it wraps around the diameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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