Cable Won't Weld????

[Muttt]

OK, things appear to be improving with this cable welding .......

Today I fired up the forge and got a new piece of old crane cable (it is a different type, a little thicker and more strands, felt heavier) and welded the ends closed with my wire feed welder to keep it together.

Once I got it up to heat I stuck the cable in and let it burn off the grease inside for a little while. Once it was good and hot and clean, I brushed it and fluxed the hell out of it with 20 mule team borax. What I realized was that I wasn't using enough flux last time. This time I poured it on and on. Eventually, it looked like a glazed donut from crispy cream. Then I knew I had enough flux. When I stuck it in the fire, the flut didn't disappear this time but floated on the surface and bubbled a little and formed a nice smooth surface while in the fire. Once it was yellow, I stuck it in the vise and gave it a twist. I then fluxed, heated and did the twist again. I knew i was making progress because the cable didn't try to untwist in the vise and stayed twisted tightly. I now know that I was nowhere near the right temp last time because everthing felt different this time. Every time I put it back in I let it soak till it was yellow and fluxed it several times. Hammer lightly a few times, fluxed and then stuck it back in. After about the 5th time hammering on the anvil, it lost that dull thud sound and started to sound like I was hitting the anvil with the hammer. It was ringing through like the cable was now solid. Here are some pictures of my progress.

Click on them to see a bigger picture..............

Cable in forge at welding heat (ready to come out)



Picture of cable fresh out of forge after some hammering in to square



Picture of cable after cooled ...... does this look welded?????



Close up of center of cable



I do have a couple question though. I am not really sure what to do next.

1. How long do I need to heat to welding temp???

2. When it's finally welded, do I then treat it like it is a piece of bar stock and forge at a lower orange temp???

3. How long to I have to keep using flux .... particularly on the piece shown in my pics???

I don't want to burn this piece out. It seems to have welded fairly nicely and I don't know when to transition to the knife making portion of the forging process.

4. At this point, can I grind away some of the outter layer that still has the cable texture and then use it like bar stock???

5. Does this piece look like it is welded enough or do I need weld it some more???

At this point, I am kinda unsure what to do. I know how to forge a bar of steel or a file into a knife. But, not sure what happens next with this piece of cable. Any guidance would be highly appreciated.

Mutt

Edited September 8, 2009 by Muttt
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[nonjic]

looking good!

stop fluxing when the flux stops splating out when your hammering! that looks pretty welded to me. grind the crud off the outside if you want

Work it on a reducing heat, no real need to keep it at a full welding heat once its consolidated, (but dont hammer it below red).

The best way to check if its solid is to take a couple of slices off it with a 1mm thin cutting disc in an angle grinder. It will soon show any voids!

[kevin (the professor)]

Do what John N said.

Just to be certain, as I mentioned before in a ramble, I deliberately hammer it enough to significantly change the cross section at a welding heat. So, the way I hammer, the cable is essentially an octagon when I have done two or three welding courses. Once I think it is probably a bar, and I have reached the point where the coating of decarb and old flux on the outside plus the outer welded material protect the inside from further oxidation and decarb. So, I have an octagonal bar of steel with a buch of crap on the outside. I do one more course at welding heat, and I think it is really important - forge to significantly change the cross-section of the bar while at welding heat. This major change in shape solidifies the existing welds and locates any voids or delaminations. I am used to starting with 1 to 1.5 inch wide, .25" thick bar stock. So, I hammer the cable billet into a flat and long rectangle. Then, grind ALL of the junk off of the outside. It is ok to cut little channels into the billet where the natural indentions from the cable twist require more and deeper grinding. This way, you don't have to sacrifice as much metal off of the surface as you would if you flat ground to remove the same stuff. Also, when done, hammer the bar flat again to remove the channels from the grind. This can not only make the welds better, it can make the pattern more interesting also.

That's my process. I haven't done it a lot, but it has worked well the few times. Look at the two I have posted now from cable recently. It appears to wok

[Muttt]

Well, I pretty much answered all of my own questions. Although, I wouldn't mind it if people answer anyway. It will only help me learn. I went out and I fired it back up and turned it down to a reducing heat. I just kept taking it to orange and then pounding the hell out of it. It's pretty hard to work. About like starting out on a new railroad spike. Eventually, with enough hammering, I finally got in down to a little more than a 1/4 inch. I left enough for me to grind down past the crud and still have a decent width on the back of the blade. I was suprised how much longer it ended up getting. I grew about 6 inches longer. But, it came out pretty good in the end. It was certainly welded. I don't see any voids so far, I hope i don't find any later. But, if I do I will just work around it and call it a character mark. Here's what I got so far. I'll show you more later once I shape it and grind it ................ It's probably gonna make a nice tanto



Thanks for all the help with it.

Mutt

[BlackSmithBear]

I'd like to thank you all as well! I found a place near me that makes up cables for the logging industry up here in northern NH. They were quite happy to give me drops left over. I have some 1"+ that I'm saving until I get a little better at the welding process, but here is what I managed with some 3/4 cable...This piece had a termination block on it, and was about 6" long outside the block. I used a much smaller hammer than I do for regular forging, and medium taps got it sticking nicely. I'll be heating it up again, and forging it flat from the (now) edge, as the Professor suggests. This was my first attempt, and it's a bit more difficult doing it with a coal forge.
Bear

I seem to be unable to post the pics now...will try again.

[bob sutton]

wayne goddard has a very good video on making cable knives.

[fat pete]

i dont think you will burn the cable in a propane forge...the cool thing about a propane forge is you can't have too many irons in the fire....not like coal....so dont worry about burnin anything just heat em up

[fat pete]

i dont think you will burn the cable in a propane forge...but i know you can degrade the steel and it will get very scaled up and real tuff to remove the scale...the cool thing about a propane forge is you can't have too many irons in the fire....not like coal....so dont worry about burnin anything just heat em up

[Егор Бреднев]

On 9/2/2009 at 11:13 PM, Jmercier said:

I weld a lot of cable, once you know how, it's pretty easy. The two big things are getting the cable clean, and getting it hot enough. You can clean the cable in the forge, with a lot of wire brushing, heating, and fluxing. You'll be able to tell when it's clean by when you stop getting a bunch of crud out when you brush it.

How deep must be tue iron in coals? And is I must too put cable in maximum heat place, white heat? Or little higher? My wire cable "dry", I cant get "wet, smoky" surface. Why so? 

[Егор Бреднев]

Can someone draw a sketch of relative position of tuyer,  thickness of coals layer, cable, coals from above cable? I read many posts about oxidizing/reducing flames but cant understand how steel can get hot enough to weld out of hottest part of fire. I use selfmade charcoal. Excuse my English. Thank You!

Edited November 27, 2017 by Егор Бреднев

[ThomasPowers]

how deep is your fire? 6", 8", more? What is your set up like?  Air Source?  Size of charcoal pieces? There is no one "relative position of tuyer,  thickness of coals layer, cable, coals from above cable" How the forge is designed and how the air is supplied can change things quite a lot. (As does the skill of the forge welder, the late Billy Merritt once  demo'd a weld at a temp I would think was a bit cool for forging!

As for how it can weld not being in the hottest part of the fire; well two things: one that may not be the hottest as the air coming in is quite cold compared to the fire temp. Second can you melt ice without putting it in boiling water?  All you need is to get the steel to the welding temp, NOT the burning temp!

[Егор Бреднев]

20 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

how deep is your fire? 6", 8", more? What is your set up like?  Air Source?  Size of charcoal pieces? There is no one "relative position of tuyer,  thickness of coals layer, cable, coals from above cable" How the forge is designed and how the air is supplied can change things quite a lot. (As does the skill of the forge welder, the late Billy Merritt once  demo'd a weld at a temp I would think was a bit cool for forging! OK! So what is essential thing? What landmark I must find? Sometimes I have successful welding. But I dont know, why.

 

 

21 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

how deep is your fire? 6", 8", more? What is your set up like?  Air Source?  Size of charcoal pieces? side blast, air inlet pipe - 28 mm diameter, wooden temporary forge so I can make different sizes. Air blower - from hand dryer. 

 

[ThomasPowers]

With my students the issues are generally by the 2's: too oxidizing, too cold, hitting too hard. Welding is really much much easier to lean with a teacher in person instructing you.

[Will W.]

These are wise words you speak, Thomas. I probably messed up a dozen billets before i got one that kind of stuck. Another half dozen before i got a blade out of it. Im still not that good at it! Lol.

With a teacher, however, im sure my success would have come quicker. 

[Егор Бреднев]

8 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

With my students the issues are generally by the 2's: too oxidizing, too cold, hitting too hard. Welding is really much much easier to lean with a teacher in person instructing you.

I have no possibility to get lessons with teacher. (((( 

 

[Егор Бреднев]

11 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

With my students the issues are generally by the 2's: too oxidizing, too cold, hitting too hard. Welding is really much much easier to lean with a teacher in person instructing you.

Mister Thomas! Do I  must put cable inside white colour glowing maximum heat coals? 10X10X10 cm to 15X15X15/ Maximum heat area? Or just put near it? I will try now.

[ThomasPowers]

Depends; if the hottest area is oxidizing then NO, if it's reducing then yes.  Make sure there is a good bed of hot coals below the piece and a good bed of hot coals above the piece as well.

[Егор Бреднев]

7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Depends; if the hottest area is oxidizing then NO, if it's reducing then yes.  Make sure there is a good bed of hot coals below the piece and a good bed of hot coals above the piece as well.

Coals must be fresh? "old" coals (that fire some  minutes) can make oxidizing flame? 

 

[Mark Ling]

This doesn't really have anything to do with the current conversation but also, others may argue with me on this, but, I have found in my limited experience with cable (have only made about 10 or so things with it) that it is easier to weld it square, or rectangular. What I mean is, that rather than rolling it while you hit it, to just hit it from 4 sides. I have even tried welding it in a swage block and didn't have success, and people swear that you gotta weld in a swage block, now it may have just been my technique, but when I went to hitting it on 4 sides like I had always done it went just fine.

                                                                                                                                                Littleblacksmith 

[ThomasPowers]

Have you tried "twist welding" cable?

Erop: yes, no, maybe depending on amount of fuel, depth of fire, and amount of air. *everything* works together in a forge to create the fire, asking about a single factor is not real useful.

[Will W.]

9 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Have you tried "twist welding" 

Please elaborate. Is it exactly what it sounds like? Bringing it up to welding temp and twisting it so tightly that it welds together?

[ThomasPowers]

Usually you start by arc welding the ends and forging the very ends sq to get a good vise/wrench bite. then heat to welding and QUICKLY place one end in the vise and grab the other with the wrench and twist in the direction of the cables natural twist.  Then proceed with normal forge welding procedures.  This helps as hammering on cable before it's welded tends to loosen the twist.

[Will W.]

Right, ive heard of that before. Never tried it though. So that makes me wonder, is it possible to repeatedly twist the cable so tightly that the force of the twist itself would weld it? I imagine it wouldnt make an incredibly strong bond, but perhaps it would set a weld? 

[ThomasPowers]

Do you mean without heat? 

As I described it does weld.  I know some people tighten the twist below welding temp to deal with the hammering issue but I was referring to twist welding.

[Will W.]

No, with heat, of course. Bring it up to welding temp and twist. No hammering. Do this 3 or 4 times, putting in a few dozen twists, maybe more. Im curious if twisting that much could cause it to weld up, it would be VERY tight at that point, and the thinking goes that maybe it could cause enough force to fuse the pieces. Just a thought. It would be interesting if it worked.