double_edge2 Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 could i use chalk....you know ,,,good old calcium carbobonateling type stuff thing or however you spell it........say mixed with water and or metho, as a paint on, reflective refractory ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I don't know. I believe an experiment is in order. First move your forge outdoors and away from people. Second, put a piece of plain old blackboard chalk in the forge and light it. Third observe what happens keeping in mind that I have NO, as in ZERO idea what kind of fumes may be produced as the chalk calcines if it does. If it does calcine you may end up with caustic lye as a by product so be CAREFUL! I wouldn't rush out and try this right away either, I'd wait and see what more knowledgeable folk on the list have to say. Lastly, I was in Wally World a few days ago and they had a Play School chalk paint spray gun on sale for under $20. The thing was for painting sidewalks of course but seems to be the thing for what you're thinking about. A bright pink, grass green or baby blue forge liner isn't going to bother you is it? Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 (edited) lol.....mmm pink please....match my fenimine contours.... was probly going to go white for the reflective...although who knows what part of the spectrum and how well a red or fluro color may fluoresce it or maybe amplify it..i think, depending on the carrier in the pressure pack, may burn, discolor and defeat the effort. i did a search in the archives and found nothing related apart from a topic on marking chalks and heat. I know, it can stand being used as a refractory, just wondering how reflective or if someone else thought of trying it....monday experiment if i get to it. and thanks for the reminder for the possible calcining issue. i believe jewelers used to use a block as a weld and solder bench. Edited August 30, 2009 by double_edge2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I was joking about the color, I doubt whatever the pigment is will survive in the forge. If it's a mineral pigment there may be byproduct issues as well so I'd go with white myself. I'll be watching for the results of the experiments. Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBrann Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Didn't they burn (read heat red hot for hours) chalk in Britain to slake in water to make slaked lime for mortar? The burned chalk reacts stongly with he water, the demo I saw it popped and hissed and shattered alot (after it was cool it was slaked) I do know that they apply heat to limestone in the process of making portland cement. Chalk and limestone have a lot in common.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Burn chalk to make Quick lime, add water to quick lime to make plaster. Chalk is not what you want in your forge. I haven't read the msds of ITC forge coating but would be unsuprised to see that it contains massive amounts of zirconium compounds. Burn limestone= to make a mixture of Quick lime and other mineral oxides= Add water and grind to make portland cement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 (edited) yep calcination of limestone (containing calcium carb) for lime ....portland cement and lime, ingredient=lime and its variants and whatever the rest for the makeup. calcium hydroxide, from the broken down by water or slaked, then the water got rid of by heat or raise the ability of dilution by heat i pressume and lots of popping and hissing. grade 5 were the best seven years of my life...lol....someone smarter would have to explain it a bit more simply or concurr to make sure i had that right. they add this to steel and the like in the making as well....apparently.....lol someone said blackboard chalk is actually Calcium sulfate and this would not be my choice. although the test is going to happen with some in the furnace. i think a large piece, unless brought slow to heat might do the popping thing as it releases its whatever its going to release, so powdered. i will try to find some of both calc carb and bl/board chalk today if not, selbys again. and the test will be next sunday at the shed with the gassy. i thought chalk was calcium carbonate. ( goes back to the grade 5 thing) after a little reading i find it is used to protect the vessel from slag and metal sticking, and i have a dolop of guk in one of my cruciples (pink stuff) for ally that does exactly that. i would say that whatever the bonding agents and fillers the desired result is the inclusion of calcium carbonate or similar, and at least for ally type heat, 660, it works as a non stick agent. so test it is. "i believe jewelers used to use a block as a weld and solder bench"........might have been for the retrieval properties, precious metal would not stick to the surface...confirmed by jeweler. still......test it is...can you tell im bored......lol Edited August 30, 2009 by double_edge2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Natural chalk is calcium carbonate, chalkboard chalk is gypsum.Chalk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 thought i said that.....if gypsum is calcium sulfate? the "someone said", was a chemist. thankyou though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 ... i thought chalk was calcium carbonate. ( goes back to the grade 5 thing) ... My apologies. I am not a chemist so I get stuck on the different name thing. I often have to reread chemistry posts 2-3 times _then_ look up what I am not sure I follow. I admit to posting wiki's as a source because it tends to be concise. I usually look at several other sites too (starting with google). Charlotte, the only ITC MSDS' I have been able to find are rather sparse. They are scanned copies of paper sheets listing everything as "nontoxic ceramic components"ITC-100 OSHA Material Data Safety Sheet (front) : anvilfire.com I think the date of preparation (1997) predates some legal something or another allowing them to better protect a trade secret. I have found other reproductions of the same msds on several supplier web sites. I have not found a source or reference other than word of mouth (or type) stating that ITC uses zirconium, or zircon in their products. Sorry if I offend, but no reference = 2nd hand, but 2nd hand does not equal bad information. Good second hand information makes the world work. One of their competition however lists ZrSiO4 as a component in some products, but I don't know which onesPLIBRICO: The Leader in Monolithic Refractories so I am inclined to believe statements that zirconium is a key ingredient. Preparation dates of this MSDS is 2007. I have not found MSDS for most reflective refractories I have found named on IFI or other web sites. (Google is only so good, and I know it is not perfect) From a pottery supply house in Columbus, about 1+ hours from me, lists kaolin, ZiO2, and ZiSiO4. No recipe but what nice prices by comparison. They ship too.Columbus Clay Company - Largest Ceramic Supplier in Ohio Look under products -> raw materials I think I will go for a drive next week but don't look forward to having an 18 month old in the car for 2-3 hours. My Kaowool arrived a few days ago so I am interested in getting somewhere on a proper forge, my brick pile..um...yea, site has a PG rating. I rant, sorry Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 no, my apologies if that seemed bruff. it was not meant to be. im not the best people person or communicator, and please, rant away, im learnin instresting stuffs here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 My apologies for getting bent, was not necessary either. I wonder how much zircon (either type I can get) kaolin can hold and remain stable. I guess I need to look up pigmented slips. I suspect that it will be a greater amount of zircon than kaolin by weight or volume, like sand in mortar, but that will also depend on particle size. I am wondering about your "chalk", I expect you to have plaster of Paris powder. I read that burning limestone (calcium carbonate) produces some calcium metal, which is similar to sodium metal for reactivity, but somewhat less vigorous. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 (edited) After reading some about slips, I think a safe try would be 20% to 25% calcined kaolin (Glowmax) and 80% to 75% ZrSiO4 such as Zircopax. Zircopax and Superpax have the same msds with the name changed where it should be, so I need to talk to someone when I go pick it up. I think measurement should be by weight, as many recipes stated this. I'm only going to have comparison of kaolin vs the slip I make for subjective reflectivity and adhesion. I will call tomorrow and go shopping next week if all is in order. Many recipes add a small amount of borax to improve adhesion. The high level of ZrSiO4 improves resistance to chemicals and fluxes. I still feel like I am taking a shot in the dark as this application is not listed elsewhere. Cost *should* be around $20 and gas, so the price seems worth it, and I can always put ITC100 over it later. Again I need to make a phone call. Phil Edited September 4, 2009 by pkrankow wrong chemistry, its ZrSiO4, not what I wrote before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 i got a fair idea about plaster, tried it for casting ages ago....not the best unless in a mixture of some sort as you say, used to paint the outside of a foam cast as the containment, two sprews and done. sodium i have played with too, good for annoying the ducks, still got all my fingers though. funny you should mention the zircon thing.....just happen to have a plant nearby, always provides entertainment when they stuff things up, once, the furnace went berzerk and the furnace room door blew off nearly hitting the guy i was talking to the next day. the whole area lost power overnight, and the size of the carbon rods they use! screw together to make an endless rod. i think he said at the time there were only two or three mobs in australia that did it. he did say that they were a small plant compared to the one big one. should hit him up for a bucket full, and some info. chalk also used as a flux for pottery and cramics i think in glazing. helps the stuff flow and stick in heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 (edited) I talked to the pottery supply place, they have the ingredients prepackaged in amounts I am interested in. They only have ZrSiO4, but two different mesh sizes. 5# of calcined kaolin is about the size of a 3# bag of flour, and 1# of zircon flour is "about the size of your fist" so between 1/2 pint and a pint is my guess. I think I will get twice as much as I initially thought, so 10# kaolin and 2# zircon flour. I would rather have WAY too much than not enough. Calcined kaolin is not supposed to shrink (much) as the bound water is cooked out already. Phil Edited September 4, 2009 by pkrankow wron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 im looking at making a mankel type forge aswell and just rang for prices. heavy fire brick $5.00 each same for the light bricks. cms castable refractory 1650 is $2.40 a kilo (25 kg bag) cms mortar 165 aw is $2.20 a kg (25kg pale) insowool 7m by 600mm $200.00 this is walk in off street price. i might have to follow your recipe and ship the ingredients that i cant get from the states i think, *** the point!,,,....to find the cheap reflective castable or paint on refractory. i was going to use 3mm steel for the covers the bottom would be a layer of steel, 1" wool, heavy fire brick. removable walls would be the light fire brick. top would be wool 2" or 2 layers and then the steel for the burners so i was thinking 3 - 5mm top plate and 3mm sides. the questions are..... 1)... how would i mount the wool? 1A)... what do i use to hold the layers or wool that wont get destroyed in the heat? 3) or do i coat the wool ( turning it into a slab ) and use tabs around the edge to keep it in place? 4) should i mortar the light brick into 1 slab and do the tab around the edge thing? these are my reason, for posting this in the first place and i have an old furnace not quite reaching weld heat and wanted to white it to see if it would reach the heat. mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I talked to the pottery supply place, they have the ingredients prepackaged in amounts I am interested in. They only have ZrSiO4, but two different mesh sizes. 5# of calcined kaolin is about the size of a 3# bag of flour, and 1# of zircon flour is "about the size of your fist" so between 1/2 pint and a pint is my guess. I think I will get twice as much as I initially thought, so 10# kaolin and 2# zircon flour. I would rather have WAY too much than not enough. Calcined kaolin is not supposed to shrink (much) as the bound water is cooked out already. Phil Sounds like you haven't explained your self very well to the people you are talking to. Calcined Kaolin and zircon flour will not do what you want. Calcined Kaolin is aka dead fired kaoling. It doesn't hold together unless other live clay is mixed with it. It is also called grog. Its use in pottery is as a filler which allows clays to be more shock resistant and shrink less when fired. Buy kaolin clay dry. mix with water and slather on. I buy by 50 lb bags costs about 20 bucks for the good stuff, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 just about ready for test got blackboard chalk....probably calcium sulfate... plumbers chalk was silicone dioxide.....might give that a swerve. no shop around has calcium carbonate.......selbys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hightlow Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 You can clean your car too, I have faith in you, you need a big GO YOU!!!! Have fun on "Family Fun Day" I like. Can I get you to post that wallpaper please. I really like it. document internet management software property asset project find the right internet management software for you document internet management software property asset project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'll add some non-calcined kaolin to the shopping list even though at 1650F it stops mattering as high temperature chemistry is occurring. Below that the added adhesion would probably help, especially before the first firing (at room temperature). Granted the firing of ceramic is a time at temperature thing, not just temperature, so I'll need to have a fresh propane bottle on hand. The price tag is also affected as calcined kaolin costs more. The forge will need fired well above "welding temp" to get the most out of the zircon. ZrSiO4 is supposedly less reflective than ZrO2, and that "decomposition" is at 2800F, way HOT. My kaowool is not rated for that hot, but there is only going to be zircon in the "glaze" layer. The kaolin can take a few hundred degrees more, and will affect the kaowool only through conduction. I suspect that a thin layer of ceramic is a "good" thermal conductor. I am beginning to think that the reason ITC costs so much is because it might be cubic zirconium, or powdered ZrO2. I don't think I'm going to get much out of the bound up Si in the ZrSiO4. Pre-firing the zircon to get ZrO2 will probably create a material I cannot process. SiO2 is a glass compound after firing and in lesser compounds is included in the calculation for the glaze. Zircon *seems* to be treated as filler since little is fired at such extreme temperature. I am still at the "regurgitation" stage of learning on this ceramics business. I am going to test my glazes on a brick before applying them. The durability of the fired product and the subjective reflectivity will determine which I use. I am thinking 100/0, 50/50, 25/75, and 20/80 kaolin (mostly calcined) to zircon. I have read somewhere (failed to bookmark) that calcium will lower the formation temperature of ZrO2, so I may try adding some lime to a similar set. I have a decent gram scale, and a fair number of empty glass jars with lids so I can repeatably mix this stuff. Normal forging temperatures are below the low end of "maturation" for kaolin porcelain. Nobody has the forge set at the temperature they need, the forge is always somewhat hotter, so maturation will eventually occur. Propane *can* reach temperatures to melt porcelain and drive the zircon to ZrO2 as it has a adiabatic flame temperature of 3600F. Granted that is assuming no energy loss. I know my forge will have energy loss as it is not just a mental exercise. I sent off for a quote/order from Zollerforge.com for the last of the stuff I need to fire this beast. Having a pressure gauge other than listening to the roar will be nice, among other things. I think Tuesday I will go for a drive for the clay and zircon. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 ended up searching some more.Zircon refractories with improved thermal shock resistance - Patent 5124287 includes a recipe! How about that for reducing effort? I still haven't found that reference for calcium...This one uses Titanium! Take that Merlin! Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Bought ingredients today. Learned that my scale sucks, especially for measurements of a few grams, and that 2kg of my mix is about 1 gallon. I had to get a 5 gal bucket with lid to mix the stabilizer. The stabilizer is 45 kaolin (EPK specifically, based on price actually) 50 calcined kaolin (Glowmax) 5 zircon flour (Superpax) total 100 Zircon is added as "grog" to prevent thermal shock. The coating is 15 calcined kaolin 15 kaolin 2 titanium dioxide 70 zircon flour total 102 (sometimes an odd number is convenient) The TiO2 is supposed to be a flux or catalyst for creation of ZrO4 at very high temperature(over 3000F). The fella at the clay shop said the kaolin/zircon coating he has heard of from others, but had no specifics. The TiO2 was a first for him. Adjust your units to suit. I am going to start lining my forge tonight. I am tumbling the mixtures in adequately large containers by hand, a few shakes at a time. I figure they should be homogeneous soon. I need to make ceramic flares, and line with wool before I clay. I am thinking about making a second coating including a very small amount of lime, since calcium is mentioned in the previous link. It will be a week or more before I have any kind of results. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I lined my forge and applied stabilizer to it. Info is here on pg 2http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f86/my-gasses-its-way-13876/index2.html Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Well, I don't like my stabilizer. I have shrink checking all over it, and a section, about 1 in^2, fell off entirely from the kaowool. The hard fire brick I applied the stabilizer too lost almost all its coating, so I scraped the remainder off. The coating is leather hard currently. I know that someone will say I used too much water, but I added just enough to not have modeling clay. The clay kept taking up more and more water, and after a few minutes would want even more water! I decided to try some of my high zircon coating mix and apply it over the leather hard porcelain material after tapping/brushing loose any poorly adhered material. I also prepared a test swatch of kaowool by pealing a layer off some scrap. I also applied it to my brick. It applied very easily. The high zircon mix required very little water by subjective comparison to reach a thin milkshake consistency. I applied with a chip bristle brush to the leather hard coating and the uncoated swatch. This material applied easily to both materials, unlike the stabilizer mix. The fibers in the kaolin swatch are held down and the material was absorbed into the surface. I will cut the swatch after it has a chance to dry. The cracks in the leather hard porcelain filled in easily with the high zircon mix. I suspect that the high zircon mix is a better fiber stabilizer than the kaolin. After the swatch dries, I am willing to cut it up and mail some pieces to people to compare. The sample will be about 1x2 inches, 1/4 inch thick approx, coated on both sides. I think I can cut 5 samples out of my swatch to send unfired. I'll just put them in those cardboard envelopes after wrapping them in plastic and something to protect them. PM me if you are interested. I do expect your opinion after firing the sample to be posted. I just paid for the last of the parts I need for my forge, so I hope to have it running soon. Phil ps: separate observation, having the forge bolted down to the shelf makes it very difficult to apply coatings, and can cause ones back to get "jacked up":( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I got impatient and waved a plumbing torch over the sample. It show heat as quick as the uncoated kaowool, but I can't say much else. I have 5 samples 1x3 inches cut, and almost ready to send, lightly and unevenly fired. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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