cesare Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I've been making a few Nordic axes using w1 for the blades and mild steel for the body. The problem being the w1 is very heat sensitive and crumbles at high heat before I make the weld. I bring the mild steel to white heat then place the w1 in at slightly above red heat or higher when the borax starts to dance. Still the welds wont take, half the time. Any tips are appreciated. Cesare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 You may be getting it too hot. A light lemon yellow is about the right color for welding and high carbon will weld at what often looks like insufficient heat. Do you have a lot of bursting sparks when it comes out of the fire? If so, then cut your blast down and let it soak in the heart of the fire right before you come out to weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 since W1 doesn't like being hot and you need it hot to wel, why not just use a different steel for your edges? seems a simple solution and one that will help to avoid the stress and wastage of failed welds ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesare Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 Yes I know there are better steels for welding but I like w1s edge holding ability. The last weld had quite a few sparks ....I was talking to a friend and not paying attention. I'll try the lemon color thanks. Cesare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesare Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 I like your site Dave. Make any camp axes? I take it you don't use w1. Cesare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Cesare,i'd say that (1)Keep in mind that a forge weld is a function of reducing atmosphere,in a BIG part,bigger part than the temperature.That's why the old wisdom had one welding on a rising heat.Fresh fire,with lots of unconsumed C. (2)You need to also think of a weld in a mechanical way-each situation has it's mech.solution.As in the hot-shortness of W-1,simly figure out how to heat them(mild and HC)together,with the mild acting as the heat ballast,to keep all in balance. The usual way was to insert the HC into the fire at such a time that both the alloys reach the welding heat/state together.(Again,the STATE is inseparable part of the equation,sometimes white-hot whatever will not weld.It's not because it's "too hot"-that's just an expression meaning that you have an oxydising environment,you done burned all the carbon from the surrounding fire). And,last,but not least,if you have friends present during welding,it will be detrimental to all processes,including the b.s.session with the friend.At least,that's how it is for me...The steel is a jealous mistress! Best of luck,keep trying,Jake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesare Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 Absolutely right Jake. I also did not scarf the mild steel very well. Also I'm having a problem with the mild flattening the w1 and shearing off the axe blade. Probably due to the scarf. The b,s talk was my fault. Too many people in the forge. She is a jealous mistress indeed. On a better note I did finish a small Nordic axe with w1 and mild steel. The longer beards are the ones giving me trouble. Cesare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Hmm...Cesare,i'm not sure that i understand.Usually,the mild and/or WI,being softer,get distorted against the harder HC bit,and this sounds like the opposite. Would it be too difficult for you to describe that in more detail,as well as the type/shape of the scarf? And just as an idea,are you absolutely sure of your mild's provenance?Sometimes we all loose track,and mix up the alloys. Beware also of A36,it can contain very hard alloys indeed. For welding especially,the less mystery-the better. Personally,for whatever it's worth,i've had fair success with a V-notch in the axe-head,and a wedge-like bit.Heated together,in position,one can grasp the head with the tongs,and rap the bit in place,effectively setting the weld right in the fire.For all subsequent actions it now becomes one piece. Occasionally it has crossed my tortured mind to forge a set of double tongs,like what was used to steel the plowshare,simultaneously holding the two parts being welded. All the best,Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesare Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 I thought the w1 would be tougher but at high heat w1 is soft. Well maybe soft isn't the word. I started with a bar 1' square cold rolled mild steel. Not sure of the exact chemistry. I drew the bar down 8 or so inches long by two or so wide and barley scarfed it. Then I folded it in half. removed it from the fire and let cool. I used wire to hold the w1 bit in. Then I returned it to the fire. heat, flux ,heat, weld. yes I know not quite the way to do it. Long story short it did not weld and the lower part of the blade came off. I have tried the v-notch method but when I hammered it the tool steel bit came out. Those tongs might be a good idea. Cesare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 O.K.,Cesare,so you turned the bar into a strap,and tried to weld the entire lengh,eye to tip. Often,it's easier to start the weld at the eye,and continue untill it's time to add the bit(unless the bit extends all the way clear to the eye,forming the front of it,is that the case?Because it changes everything quite a bit). 1"sq.is nice stuff,almost enough to drift.But just about the right gauge for the strap method as well,maybe a touch heavy,which is good. I think i know what you mean-you've left the lips of the scarf on mild so thick that they sheared through the bit...Yep,they should be drawn down to thin edges,but not small enough to burn. Now,from your reference to a "beard",and the extention of the bit downwards,i incur that you were going for the bearded shape by preshaping the bit. In my own struggles with similar shapes i've learned that it does not pay:1)The classy shapes of old axes were come by forging of the welded blank,drawing and peening,not starting out that shape at all.2)All this forging also serves to improve and solidify the weld-large welds on the flat areas are never good enough at first(besides being hard to make,dissipating the heat).Welding chunkier,closer to a sq.section parts is easier,and working them to shape subsequently insures both the form,and the function(solid weld). I've learned the hard way to figure the given process,and to follow it solely,instead of trying to mix the elements of different types of construction.Each method usually ends up to be more complex than meets the eye,it's parts necessary in a way that may not be obvious...Are you going for a specific way/shape/type of an axe?Maybe some research into the whys and wherefores of that specific method may disclose the pitfalls of deviating from the sequence. Just throwing some thoughts out there,and confusing ones,at that.The truth is always found in one's own forge,using that particular chunk of steel,so the best of luck,hope that you'll persevere at this! Regards,Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I like your site Dave. Make any camp axes? I take it you don't use w1. Cesare only occasionally as it's a lot of hard work without a power hammer. Most of the small axes I make are when teaching groups, in which case we start with hammer heads (that way we don't need to weld or punch a hole). I've not long got myself a flypress, so I hope to start making more axes. I don't use W1, but that's mostly because it's not that easy to find in the UK. For axes and other welded edges like that I tend to stick to simple steels like EN42 (basically 1070) or similar. I did make a few small axes with O1 as a core and mild as the wrapped around body. I stopped after I had one go 'Ping' in the oven during tempering. I thought it was my welds, but they were fine. The break was from the mild steel still contracting and shearing the hard O1 in two! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesare Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 Thanks Jake. yes I made a strip. The w1 bit was only 1/2 an inch or so inside the weld Yes I should have welded most of the mild steel body first then the w1 bit. The scarf was a mess. Next time I hope will be better. I shaped the w1 into a rectangle about 7'' long by 1 and 1/2'' wide by 1/4'' thick. My intention was to make a foot long viking war axe. The problem with making the axe into one solid billet is that the blade is many times longer then the body. So I tried to weld a long edge into a smaller body. I love the larger axes and swords, they're just a bit tougher to make. Hello Dave. I don't find hand hammering that difficult as long as it's not 95 degrees outside. Is a hammer head the right steel for a work axe? Can you harden them enough for a cutting edge? Did you anneal the o1 first? Cesare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 depends on the ahmmer I've found some that turned out to be cast and just fell apart as soon as struck, others wouldn't harden once finished. So now I buy in hammers of a known steel, I forget the true designation now, but I think it's something like "1050 modified" It takes and holds a good edge The O1 was from brand new annealed stock before I started heating it to stupid high temperatures and then beating it around in a lump of mild steel. I think it was just down to the differential rates of contraction and the fact that as quenched O1 is very brittle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesare Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 I'll have to try the hammer head method. I have made 3 axes so fare and as soon as I figure out how to post a picture I will. Cesare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) I like to trap the steel piece in as shown below. Just a couple spots, not the whole edge, you need room to expel the flux. Don't fan out till after welding, that allows a couple or three good welding heats while working it down. I get the axe hot, flux the split, reheat and insert the fluxed piece of steel and crimp. Then bring the whole thing up to welding heat. Weld from the back/center outward. Oh yeah, the edge will be junk so I trim it back on the hardy 1/2 inch after forging out most of the way. Edited October 5, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesare Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) That's a **** good idea. Think that would work for a large Dane axe? Can you crimp such a large blade? Why do you discard the edge? Is it burnt that badly? I am not welding at such high temp that I see sparks. Or is it carbon migration or grain growth? Cesare Edited October 10, 2009 by mod07 language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Sure, you should be able to crimp anything. It's just to keep the steel from falling out or "spitting out" in the first few blows. I cut the edge off because I've folded iron over the steel with the crimp and want to expose the steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 If you are overheating the edge then your process is wrong or just out of line in the steps and heats. Watch this video, notice how he has the axe head hot, then adds the bit cold then brings it all up to a welding heat, this assures the bit does not overheat but the body of the axe is high enough to weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 What video? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 YouTube - Traditional axe making and wooden lodge construction from Sweden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesare Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 Hello Sam. That was a good video. Yes I have used that method. You can still burn w1 anyway. I tend to use the warped eye technique. I'm looking into using heat treat crayons. I'm having a hard time seeing the colors bleed down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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