Reoryx Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Hi guys, I'm just getting started in smithing (I should have my forge up and running this coming weekend) - I was just wondering if anyone could suggest an appropriate material for a basic set of chisels and punches. I assume the easiest material for a beginner to heat-treat would be a carbon steel. - Thanks for any responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I make my hammer eye punches out of A2, an air hardening steel. Heat it and forge it, set it aside to cool. Grind or sand to finish, let it air cool. Works great. Ask around machine shops, tool and die places, for drops or cutoffs. Preferably round rod or square bar 6- 8" long (more is better but then you'll be buying it), no more than 1" diameter. Any of the other tool steels would work as well, but I found A2 the easiest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 H13 is designed for hot work and excels at that application. S7 and S1 are also good if you can obtain them. Can sometimes be picked up from plastic injection molders, die casting shops or mold/die repair places since they typically use these steels in their process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Norris Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I would just use what you have on hand. The high alloy stuff is nice, but not necessary and I would save it for that tool that gets used all the time. It is possible to make tools from mild steel and they will work, once or twice. If you only need the tool that once than you are set. Tools that will see a bit more use, (abuse,) deserve to be made from that old coil spring you found or whatever is high enough in carbon. A few years from now you will know which tools would be nice to have in an air hardening or red hard steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Pook Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 for the junkyard scrounger, car springs, swaybars, axle shafts work good. You can also buy cheap decent material typical punches from places like harbourfrieght and rework them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I have had good luck using scrounged steels from axles (1050?), car springs (5160), and jack hammer bits (S5 and S2). All have been free for the asking, except for the occassional bribery of beer:rolleyes: I believe that the best "new" steel would be S7 or H13, depending on the usage you had planned. These can be bought through tool steel suppliers, or drops can be bought for a reduced price on ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Re-work old stardrills and cold chisels found *cheap* at the fleamarket as a source of steel for tooling---remember when forging it that it should be treated like high carbon! Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolano Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 coil springs are nice and cheap for things like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Beamish Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Another source of cheap tool steel is your local hire shop ask if they have any broken Jackhammer bits or ones that are too short to re-use or reforge. The smaller ones say 5/8" to 3/4" would be ideal for punches etc. The 1" and 1 1/4" and bigger are ok for anvil tools, hot setts, hammers. Most of the time they are S1 or equivalent, so no real heat treating dramas. When they find out your a 'smith they might want some good ones sharpened and Heat treated. Cheers, Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Actually a lot of jackhammer bits can be just 1050---as reported to us by a guy who used to resharpen them as his "day" job. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Beamish Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 That's interesting Thomas. It is certainly not my experience of Jackhammer bits in Australia. I believe that the ones I have come across over the years (nearly 30 since I started my apprenticeship as an Engineering Blacksmith) whilst they may not have been all S1 they would've most certainly been harder and tougher than .50% straight carbon steel (1050). That is what I baased my comments upon. However if they bits that are available are made from 1050 whilst they are not ideal for punches and chisels, in the larger sizes they can still be used for general anvil tooling, swages, flatters, bickerns, and the smaller sizes can be used for drifts etc. My comments about the potential for a little work to come your way is still valid in either case. I know this for a fact as I have been doing Jackhammer points and chisels for several local hire firms for years. Cheers, Bruce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolano Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Well, I made a cold chisel out of 1 1/4 inch jackhammr bit. Quenched it in water, no tempering. Hasnt cracked or dulled yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 I Do Not Think That Pro's Or People That Use Many Different Tools Can Depend On Broken Jackhammer Steel. I Use Mainly S 1 And H 13 . I Have Punches And Chisels That I Forged 15 Year Ago Still Going Strong ,to My Opinion Both Of Them Are Very Similar From The Heat Resustance Point Of View With A Little Adsvance For The H13. If You Can Get M4 And M2 They Are Even Better. Uri Hofi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Beamish Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I agree with your points Uri, I took the original request to mean a cheap source of tool steel for someone starting out. So rather going and buying new steel at fairly high prices a new starter could gain some experience by using some cheap recycled materials. Cheers, Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 HELLO BRUCE IF WE BUY GOOD STEEL FOR A CERTAIN JOB THAT WILL COST US APPR 2-3$ and the tool will hold 10-20 years insted of 5 THEN THE PRICE DO NOT COUNT AND TO WORK WITH A GOOD TOOL IS ''TO WORK WITH A GOOD TOOL'' MAKES A BIG DIFFERENT. THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO TEACH !!!!!!!!! HOFI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolano Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Right, and I agree with you, Hofi. But for someone who is unfamiliar with working tool steel, it might be a good idea to make the first chisel or two out of something cheap, to get the idea of how it works. I agree with you totally, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 A question about the S1, H13, M4, M2, steels. I have not to my knowledge worked/played with these, but would like to make punches, chisels ect from them. I worked a few files for knives or openers.... one just fractured as I was working it the others worked out well. All were quenched & tempered but one just did'nt make it! I assume to brittle?! I am going to find some tool steel at the scrap or steel yard and would like to have reliable results. The punches & chisels I worked are from mild steel and quenched in water, vegetable oil and even tried the "super quench". I only quench the working end and leave the hitting end air cooled soft. Also tempered some and others just quenched, most work very well & some pretty good. Learning by experimenting!!!! Question is do you air cool or quench or quench & temper, these tool steels? Is there a rough guide or rule of thumb to follow for the different grades? Will a tool steel be to brittle if quenched and be unuseable to the point of cracking or coming apart durring use? Thanks for the help TIM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolano Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 It all depends on the steel. Machinery's handbook has an excellent section on tool steels and their heat treating. I reccomend getting one, I got my 19th edition for $11 shipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 H13 is designed for hot work and very forgiving in heat treatment but it is tough to forge by hand and should be worked above a yellow temp. Forge to shape and let cool in the gas forge after it's turned off or bury in wood ashes. Afterwards, clean and grind to your satisfaction, then reheat to a bright orange and let sit in still air to cool. This will give a hardness in the high 40's to low 50's Rc. In use, it can be quenched in water from a dark red and not crack. This is why it is so popular for hot die work, casting molds, etc. S7 is also good. It seems to have more tendency to crack but will get harder than H13 - but that is not really something that is needed in forging tools except for durability in high production. S1 has a bit of tungsten to help with hot hardness but is sometimes hard to find. All of these are air hardening. M2 is typically used for cutters and the like so has some hot hardness qualities but is notch sensitive and will crack at the worst times. I would not use it for hot tools unless it was all I had and someone gave it to me. I have a very thin (in cross section) hot chisel from H13 that will slice right thru a piece of 3/4 or 1" bar in one heat without rolling the edge. I forged it about ten years ago and it looks about the same with hard use. I redressed the edge on the belt grinder a couple of times but this was primarily to sharpen. Like Hofi said, build it once from good material and use it for a lifetime... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Tim When Forging The Toolsteels You Must!!! Be Very Carefull With The Forging Temp !!! S1 H13 M2 M4 And Also 1045 1050 1060 And On 4140 4340 Do Not Like To Be Forged On Higher Temp Then 1800 Degrees And Not Lower Then 800. If U Go Higher U Creat Big Particals In The Steel And If U Do Not Normalize It It Will Be Brittal And Brake. U Degredate The Steel And Normalising Is A Very Long And Costly Proces And Not Eassy For The Blacksmith. Forging Under 800 Degrees Create Iner Cracks In The Steel That U Do Not See While Forging But The Moment U Quench The Cracks Will Show And The Tool Will Brake When Used. It Is Not Eassy To Maintain The Right Temp With Our Forges But Again It Is A Must!!! U Save A Lot Of Time And Mony If U Forge In The Limit Of The Rules Of Metalurgy. I Agre With Every Word Of Hwoolridge Hofi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Best book I have found...and this includes Machinery's a host of others...is "Heat Treatment, Selection, and Application of Tool Steels" by William Bryson. Amazon sells it, so does Pieh Tool Co. It covers in readable language what Hofi just said about not ruining the steel. You can also check at machine shops and see where they sell their drops. Sometimes there are little shops that specialized in selling these materials, and like Hofi said, I've bought H13 and S1 and A2 in nice shapes for $2-$4 each. That's not much for a tool that will last many, many years. Good tools tend to make for good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 HWooldridge, Hofi, Ellen, Thanks Guys & Gal for the info it really is appreciated and will be put use good use right away. You have helped answer one of my many blacksmithing questions. It seems the more I work and learn the more questions pop up everyday. It is great to know you can get solid help or advice from great people. Again Thanks, If there is more info, I am all ears and ready to learn!!!! TIM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Beamish Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Thank you Uri, Ellen and Hw you are all correct in what you say but not all of us have easy access to the types of tool steels you mention. There would certainly not be any shops or suppliers in the rural area where I live that would have offcuts of h13 or s7 etc. It is not available via mail order in short lengths like it is in the USA. The last time I purchased some hot die steel I had to travel 130 kilometres (80 miles) each way and the cost was $28 a kilogram (2.2lb)for the steel and it is certain to be more than that now. Generally the shortest length in small bar sizes you can buy is 1 metre plus cutting charge ($5). As I said in my original post I took the request to be for a cheap source of tool steel for someone starting out to get some experience with. Cheers, Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reoryx Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 I must admit that I really wasn't expecting such a flurry of responses; you've certainly given me some very useful information both for immediate use and for future consideration. Thanks for all the responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 BRUCE I NEVER SAID THAT THE JACK HAMMER REAR AXEL CAR MOTOR EXOUST VALVES STEEL IS NOT GOOD FOR HOT CUTTING OR PUNCHING U CAN USE THEM BUT U LL HAVE TO COOL THEM MORE OFTEN I MY SELF USED THEM AS A BEGINER AND THEY WORKED ALRIGHT.BUT AS A PROFFETIONAL I AM LOOKING FO THE BEST FOR INSTANCE TO DAY I PUNCH AND CHISLE MY HaMMARS AND AXES EYES WITHE A PURE TONGSTEN CHISLE THAT COSTS ON THE MARKET PRICE 75$ 2.2 POUNDS BUT I FORGE HUNDREDS OF EYES NOW WITH THE SAME CHISLE WITH NO SHARPENING AT ALL !!!! HOFI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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